The seat reclining debate revisited - news story

Jenn wrote in message ...
the recline on most domestic flights is very small -- those who talk
about someone reclining into their lap or locking them in are generally
exagerating

I have to disagree with that statement. I'm only 5' 10" tall, but on
many flights, if I am in an economy seat (not including AA and UA's
premier seating), if the person in front of me fully reclines and I am
*not* reclined, I can play patty-cake on his bald haid without fully
extending my arms. If I read a newspaper, it is draped on his head.
If I lower my tray table and put my laptop computer on it, I can't
open it more than about 45 degrees. Some seats recline less than
others, yes. But I've been on plenty where are indeed 'trapped' in
your seat. If you can't see your own knees, you're trapped.

I get a headache in those bolt upright seats with the curved forward
tops -- a little recline is essential to my comfort

Just something I've learned to deal with, I guess. The upright seat
doesn't really bother me.

probably so -- but not now that it is being publized [I will have to
stop with the flamethrower I guess] but now if my seat is 'broken' I
will know to check

I know the TSA is still confiscating random non-dangerous things from
passengers (because the TSA is mostly idiots), but I still see
passengers who somehow don't know (or profess not to know) that they
can't bring things like pocketknives onboard. Seriously. I don't
know HOW they manage to remain so uninformed, but they do.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

The Bill Mattocks wrote:

Jenn wrote in message ...

the recline on most domestic flights is very small -- those who talk
about someone reclining into their lap or locking them in are generally
exagerating


I have to disagree with that statement. I'm only 5' 10" tall, but on
many flights, if I am in an economy seat (not including AA and UA's
premier seating), if the person in front of me fully reclines and I am
*not* reclined, I can play patty-cake on his bald haid without fully
extending my arms. If I read a newspaper, it is draped on his head.
If I lower my tray table and put my laptop computer on it, I can't
open it more than about 45 degrees.

I agree that it affects your ability to read a newspaper or use your
laptop, or most carriers. However, the violent guy seemed to indicate it
caused problems for his knees, which doesn't make sense since the
recline at knee level isn't that pronounced. However, my ability to
sleep outweights your need to read a newspaper.

mrtravel wrote:

Plus the greatest movement in the incline is well above the knee level.

The greatest recline might be above the knees, but there is enough
recline at my knee level that they can't remain behind the seat back
with anything more than a slight recline. I have had them nicely mashed
by people who insist on quickly reclining their seats. At that point,
the only place I can put them is typically on either side of the seat
back, making for a very uncomfortable flight.

mrtravel wrote in message om...
I agree that it affects your ability to read a newspaper or use your
laptop, or most carriers.

I don't know - I've seen tall guys who had to splay their legs out a
bit when the seat in front of them was all the way back, particularly
on United 737's in the non-Premier economy section. Like I said, I'm
only 5-10. When the seat in front of me is fully reclined and I'm in
coach on most airlines, I've got maybe an inch, inch-and-a-half of
wiggle room. I have had to remove my magazines from the seat back
because when I put 4 or 5 of them in the seat back, it did hit my
legs.

When the seat in front of you goes back, you do have less space down
by the knees, although it is not as pronounced as it is topside.

I don't know how you could have *never* seen this in coach. I've seen
it so many times with really tall guys sitting next to me that I just
figured everyone had seen it at one time or another.

However, the violent guy seemed to indicate it
caused problems for his knees, which doesn't make sense since the
recline at knee level isn't that pronounced.

At knee-level, you've got a lot less space to play with, so even
though less is lost when the seat is reclined, it can be more
disruptive and uncomfortable.

However, my ability to
sleep outweights your need to read a newspaper.

I can't argue that, and I can't compare 'needs' when there are so many
variables. When push comes to shove, it appears that you put your
need before anyone else's need in this case. Some might call that
'being a jerk'.

As I said, I seldom recline my seat, I can sleep in mine just fine
upright. If I *do* recline, I look back first to see what or whom I'm
reclining into. And I try to go back slowly, although I'll admit some
recline buttons are a bit binary about that. If I leave my seat or
take a meal, I'll bring the seat up. It seems 'civil' to me. Like
I'd want someone to do for me.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Simon Elliott wrote:

Frank F. Matthews writes

My only problem is why the gymnastics. Why not just poke the guy in
front and ask him to fold his seat. If no response then fold it for
him. FFM

Because the guy in front has every right to recline his seat?
Because poking people and pushing their seat upright is rude and
obnoxious?
Because some people get quite annoyed when someone is rude and obnoxious
to them?

Gee that's just what I think when folks try to crush my knee caps.
Pushing their seat away from my knees is rude and obnoxious. Geeze!

FFM

Jenn wrote:

In article ,
(The Bill Mattocks) wrote:

Jenn wrote in message
...

exactly -- the person who bought the seat owns the recline space-- most
people me included will do our best to accomodate someone who has a
legitimate problem e.g. the pregnant woman, the very tall guy with
serious knee space problems -- but upright seats are intensely badly
designed and uncomfortable and many people are fairly miserable in them

I don't know who 'owns' the space where the seat reclines; to me it is
less clear-cut than the issue of who 'owns' the space under the seat
in front of you. But in my experience, few people are sensitive at
all to the requirements, legitimate or otherwise, of the person in
back of them. I seldom see anyone look behind them before reclining,
or recline slowly instead of all at once, or even move the recline up
while eating. They just get on the plane, sit down, get airborne, and
BANG, straight back with the chair. It's like being on one of the
newer roller-coaster rides, where the bar comes back to lock you in -
you ain't going nowhere until the ride's over.

the recline on most domestic flights is very small -- those who talk
about someone reclining into their lap or locking them in are generally
exagerating

Small perhaps. But so is the space allocated for my knees. And the
reclining usually reduces it to a negative amount of cushion.

my comfort is however not less important than someone else's desire to
confiscate my space for their own comfort

I seldom recline my seat, and I can sleep sitting bolt upright - in
fact, I usually do. I find my flights less stressful when I don't try
to read, work, or etc on the plane. I just turn off like a switch. I
wake up when I feel the plane starting to descend.


I get a headache in those bolt upright seats with the curved forward
tops -- a little recline is essential to my comfort

And your potential headache is more important than my crushed knees. FFM

I care about the recline and never take a seat that doesn't if I can
help it -- -- if someone sticks a wedge in MY SEAT, then the wedge will
be removed [just as the suitcase that someone in the seat ahead of me
had placed in my footspace was removed]

I suspect that most people won't know that the wedge is in there -
they'll just assume that the seat is broken and/or won't recline after
trying a few times. Heck, most idjits don't even know you can't bring
yer flame-thrower on the plane anymore.

probably so -- but not now that it is being publized [I will have to
stop with the flamethrower I guess] but now if my seat is 'broken' I
will know to check

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

If they would put in seats that fold above my knees I have no problem.
Kinda hard on the recliner folding their back that way but they are
welcome to that space. FFM

mrtravel wrote:

Jenn wrote:

the recline on most domestic flights is very small -- those who talk
about someone reclining into their lap or locking them in are
generally exagerating

Plus the greatest movement in the incline is well above the knee level.

mrtravel wrote:

The Bill Mattocks wrote:

Jenn wrote in message
...

the recline on most domestic flights is very small -- those who talk
about someone reclining into their lap or locking them in are
generally exagerating

I have to disagree with that statement. I'm only 5' 10" tall, but on
many flights, if I am in an economy seat (not including AA and UA's
premier seating), if the person in front of me fully reclines and I am
*not* reclined, I can play patty-cake on his bald haid without fully
extending my arms. If I read a newspaper, it is draped on his head.
If I lower my tray table and put my laptop computer on it, I can't
open it more than about 45 degrees.

I agree that it affects your ability to read a newspaper or use your
laptop, or most carriers. However, the violent guy seemed to indicate it
caused problems for his knees, which doesn't make sense since the
recline at knee level isn't that pronounced. However, my ability to
sleep outweights your need to read a newspaper.

I wonder why the guy from Holland had so much trouble reclining his seat
then. All i was doing was holding my knees and protect them. If he
could have reclined his seat without crushing my knees I'm sure he would
have. I even got him a little recline by dumping all the airline trash
in the seat pocket onto the floor but that didn't appear to help him
much. FFM

Jenn wrote:

In article ,
"Frank F. Matthews" wrote:

Your concept of what space you own is interesting. I'll simply ignore
you. Attempting to crush my knees may result in reflex responses which
may fold your seat completely. FFM

you bullies are so cute -- of course the world belongs to you including
the space other people have paid for because well, just because you are
you

No Jenn you just don't get it. You haven't paid for the space behind
your seat that my knees need to occupy to stay functional. I don't
intend to crush my body to get you extra space. FFM

snip

If you are that concerned over who reclines in front of you, book early, and
book a bulk head seat. And you can sometimes find seats that give you more
space by going to www.seatguru.com

Doug


"The Bill Mattocks" wrote in message
m...
I guess this item was an idea whose time had come - now, I wonder if
it will be welcomed, or banned? Interesting concept, as this issue is
quite polarizing. Myself, I'm one of those who seldom reclines his
seat, and would respond affirmatively to a request by the person
behind me to raise my seat if my reclining bothered them. Others here
on r.t.a. have voiced their opinion that it is their seat to recline
or not recline as they see fit.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

*** QUOTE ***


http://www.usatoday.com/travel/vacat...3-10-10-knee-d
efender.htm

Airline seat Knee Defender device kicks up a debate

By Laura Bly, USA TODAY

To recline, or not to recline?

An already contentious debate is gaining altitude among space-starved
frequent fliers, thanks to a plastic wedge that slips over a lowered
tray-table arm and keeps would-be recliners from putting the squeeze
on passengers sitting behind them.

Since its Web-based launch two weeks ago, the $9.95 Knee Defender has
generated several hundred orders - and a planeload of controversy over
its ethics and legality.

Inventor Ira Goldman, a 6-foot-3, Washington, D.C.-based former
congressional aide, says he came up with the idea after deciding
"there must be a better way to defend against reclining seatbacks than
waiting to be smacked by one or hoping to be quick enough to stop it
with a straight-arm block."

Though Goldman says he knows of no prohibitions against its intended
use, the Knee Defender's Web site cautions would-be users to "always
comply with the flight attendant's instructions."

And Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Paul Takemoto takes a
dim view: "Airline seats are designed and installed to strict
regulations, and we wouldn't allow passengers to bring uncertified
devices or pieces of equipment that alter the way those seats
perform."

Goldman insists the device "was not developed so people can hog scarce
space when they don't need it" and says it wouldn't be necessary on
airlines that offer extra legroom in economy.

*** END QUOTE ***