Hurricane Season 2004--please read

William Boyd wrote in message ...

As for Reef Fish, Bob you baffle them with bull ****, with a feudal
venture in to dazzling dumbness. You neglected to mention the odds
required in favor of the insurance companies before they will play the
game.

Mr. Boyd, you jumped into the middle of this thread, without having
read what I have posted, and blasted away with YOUR "dazzling dumbness".

Let me give you a piece of advice on how to participate in a newsgroup
"discussion". When you jump into the middle of a thread, do a little
bit of homework to find out what the issue is, and at least what some
others have already discussed before jumping in yourself.

In other words, "Look before you leap".


I did that before I made my first post in this thread:

Date: 2004-05-20 03:19:25 PST

RF I read through most of the posts in this thread, and the posts by
RF Charlie and Grandma Rosalie are the most sensible ones in terms
RF of "rational decision making", "risk assessment", and how an
RF INDIVIDUAL should view the insurance question.

immediately followed by

RF Purchasing an insurance, ANY insurance, is taking part in an
RF "unfavorable gamble" by the insured!
RF
RF There is NO exception to the above.

That was said on the SAME DAY, and BEFORE you made this accusation:

cowboy BILL You neglected to mention the odds required in favor of
cowboy BILL the insurance companies before they will play the game.

Need I diagram for you that an "unfavorable gamble" by the insured
means the odds are in favor ot the insurance company?



SPAM. Some here are with intentions to sell the insurance offered,
nothing else. BILL

Some are here to discuss the ISSUE of insurance in a general framework
to help clarify some of the specific issues that seem to baffle others.

You are obviously not in either of those groups.


Bob you baffle them with bull ****, with a feudal
venture in to dazzling dumbness.

I presume that was a self confession of YOUR "dazzling dumbness",
and the reference to "bull ****" was because that's in your cowboy
trade?

-- Bob.

"Skip Elliott Bowman" wrote in message link.net...
"William Boyd" wrote in message
...
Now I think Bowman would make a good used car salesman, and he is a fair
insurance salesman.

Neither. I take it you're not a consulting detective, like Sherlock Holmes.

Nah, Skip.

Mr. Boyd is just a bull-****ting cowboy who had just fallen
off his horse and got a face full of bull **** in his own
cowboy pen,


But let's not be too harsh on him. He is a war veteran who had his
brain fried in war.

If you want to find more about him, just go to alt.war.veteran,
soc.veterans, alt.politics, soc.retirement, alt.war.vietnam, and
alt.politics.bush, to name just a few, to see his presence there.


BTW, he has not posted anything in any newsgroup before April 7, 2004.
He must have gotten his new internet toy from Uncle Sam because he
had 30 posts on Apr 7 in several different vet/war/politics newsgroups
that day.

By April 10, 2004, he already had 102 posts in those newsgroups.

A most prolific bull-**** spreader. He already had over 590 posts in
various newsgroups by now.

May 20 was his FIRST DAY of posting in rec.travel.caribbean, and he
obviously felt the desire to impress everyone with his "bull ****"
status and stock.


Skip, you don't have to be a Sherlock Holmes to find out information
about newsgroup posters. The above was the result of just a few
minutes of search in google newsgroups about .

-- Bob.

"Jess Englewood" wrote in message ...
"Charlie Hammond" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jess Englewood" writes:

"Rosalie B." wrote
..
The PRUDENT thing to do if you take a vacation during the hurricane
season is NOT to insure the vacation but to not spend any more than
you can afford to lose, and to have alternate plans.

Grandma Rosalie said that -- not me (Charlie Hammond) as your posting
seemed to indicate. No big deal -- I agree with the statement.

..
But in the end it is a personal decision. Whether or not anyone wants, or
does not want, to spend a few hundred bucks to possibly protect a few
thousand is not a matter of thriftiness or sensibility. But a matter of
personal comfort level with the expenditure.

I agree that it is a personal decision, related to personal comfort level.
However, over several years you will be spending a few thousand dollars,
not just a few hundered.

Doesn't matter what a person is spending, it matters why they are spending
it. And if a few hundred for one trip, or a few thousand over several years
of trips makes sense to *them*, then that, rather than what somebody else
with a different perspective tells you to do, is "PRUDENT".

Another angle is for those travelling from faraway - I've got a
feeling I read sometime back we have to have insurance for the US -
purely from the medical angle. That's why I take it out, same with
most countries, any kind of medical bill could wipe me out, or at
least seriously damage my tight budget. As I'm getting insurance for
that main expense, I go along with the lesser ones such as emergencies
and baggage.

I don't recall checking hurricane type of problems before in the small
print, but I probably will now.

I've had insurance for just about every overseas trip I've ever had
and apart from a few lost items, only really needed it one time. On
that trip I specifically had to have evacuation cover, and events came
to me nearly needing full-on emergency evacuation.

imo, medical problems are generally the main issue. So if I have an
accident in the Caribbean and need to go to Miami or similar, it'd be
more than a few holidays' insurance to equal the amount I'd pay for
treatment.


Remember way back when, before we all realized we were not as smart as we
thought, and we used to say "it's all relative" in answer to almost every
quandary. Well, in some sense we were right.

And your only protecting agains some limited
situations -- you vacation dollars are still at sustantial ris for
uncovered situations.

There are differing levels of coverage, with of course differing levels of
expense. You have said that you don't buy trip insurance so I suspect you
may not be as familiar with it's many current iterations as someone who
does. There are some extraordinary policies out there. There are some real
crap policies as well.

And in my experience the amount your protecting --
the amount that wouldn't be refunded in any case -- is in the hundreds.

You are understating the case significantly. Acceptable reasons for loss are
pretty expansive and you only cover whatever expense you choose. It is
practically the very simplest insurance written, other than the jewelry
rider on your homeowners policy. I don't buy it often, but there are trips
in which I would be a fool not to. I generally buy it for any Pacific Rim or
Africa trip I take. The cases of trip interruption alone have made me more
than whole on every single dime I have spent on travel insurance.

William Boyd wrote in message ...

Now I think Bowman would make a good used car salesman,

As for Reef Fish, Bob you baffle them with bull ****,

Mr. Boyd, not bad for your debut in rec.travel.caribbean! I had
already documented the history of your bull-**** spreading after
about 10 minutes of search in google.

So, let's get on with your ON topic remark he


The Cruise ship industry will provide insurance for about any thing,
when it comes to collecting, forget it.

How do you know so much about the Cruise ship industry, having never
been in even rec.travel.cruises except for the cross-posting of this
thread?


My experience was baggage damage, New suitcase destroyed,
they stated, that was not covered, in their insurance policy, that
rhwy thought I might have.

That's a valid anecdotal experience about yourself, though completely
useless statistically or for readers of this newsgroup.

How can you generalize your single experience to any cruise line (which
you didn't name), let alone the entire Cruise INDUSTRY? Nor did you
even mention the insurance company involved. In other words, even if
it's not your patented bull ****, it has absolutely no value to anyone
reading your anecdote.

I can relate one recent (last year) experience on the Tahitian Princess
or the Princess Cruise Line.

I had purchase NO insurance whatsoever on any of my travle, as
previously stated.

Onw piece of my luggage was slightly torn at one corner, after the
transit from LAX to Papeete. But it got to the loading bin at the
cruiseship without further damage.

By the time that piece of luggage got to my cabin, it was sufficient
torn on one side that I worried about using it on my return trip.
So I inquired on the cruiseship about that piece. They immediately
informed me that they handle minor repairs like that on ship, and
would have the piece repaired before the end of the cruise.

There was no further discussion about the matter. It was an
inexpensive piece of luggage that was bought to be a "throw away"
if it should be damaged becaise it's not worth the hassle (from
prior experience) on damage insurance included in the cost of the
airline ticket.

By "hassle" I don't mean the insurance coverage was not honored.
THey WERE honored, but the authroized repair center of my Samsonite
and other expensive luggage was in a city 120 miles from where I
lived, and the TIME it took for any such repairs exceeded most of
the "between trip" time I have these days -- two to three short
(3 to 7 days) trips a month, 1-2 longer trips a month (such as
a 10-day cruise). THAT was why I've since purchased "throw-away"
luggage (that are nevertheless quite adequate for most travels)
at stores like Sears, Pennys, etc.

A by-product of this discussion: An insurance covered damage MAY
not be worth the "hassle" to claim, in the sense above, even
though the insurance coverage itself was properly honored by
the insurance company!


By mid-week of the cruise, I inquired about the status of repair
of that piece of luggage, and I was pleasantly surprised to find
that the Cruise ship had VOLUNTARILY (without me asking) replaced
that piece with a new piece (of better quality, and nearly
comparable in size to the damaged piece) instead of repairing
the tear -- which would have satisfied me.

Kudos for the Tahitian Princess and the Princess Cruise Line. That's
just one of the reasons it's my favorate Cruise Line (among several
others I've used).

But I would NOT generalize that single experience to anything, other
than noting that particular incident of EXCELLENT SERVICE beyond
the call of duty, and without having resorted to any insurance
coverage or claim!


How's that, cowboy BILL?

-- Bob.

On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:13:42 -0500, William Boyd
wrote:

have you ever had to make a claim against the insurance policy?

Yes. $118 insurance on a $1600 cruise.


chilly wrote:

"Charlie Hammond" wrote in message
...
In article t,
(snip) Also keep in mind that you will probably NOT loose all of your
vacation
money. Most resorts and airlines will (inspite of the original posters
statements) make a full or partial refund under most conditions --
certainly if a hurrican makes thier providing the contracted services
impossible.

My advice is to SAVE the money you would pay for trip insurance.
Every few years you'll have saved enough to treat yourself to a
better vacation -- maybe even a "free" one.


I hear you and generally follow that route. However, on my last trip, there
was quite a bit of travelling involved, a number of different destinations
included. I wanted to make sure that I had travel interruption insurance.

--
dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:19:12 -0400, DrYak wrote:


Charlie,
Sorry, but it is all a bet. Look at the probabilities and the loss to
get the expected value or pay for insurance. And insurance companies
also invest your premium so they can lose all the premium and still show
a profit because of the investments.

This is no longer the case. This is one of the principle reasons
premiums have gone up. The insurance companies may claim 9/11, but
it's really the stock market. They just don't want to admit it.

So I usually decline the
"insurance" at Best Buy because they want too much to insure my new toy
maybe $25 for something that costs $100. Now if they would insure it
for $5 I'd probably take the insurance.

"What, is your product that crappy?" Although we usually do buy an
extended warranty on cars, if it's a zero deductible. But then again,
we keep our cars 7 years or longer.




Charlie Hammond wrote:
In article t,
"Skip Elliott Bowman" writes:


Hurricane season is June 1 through November 30, with most gales forming
mid-July through November. While this is no reason not to go or to cancel
existing plans, a prudent option would be to hedge your plans with
insurance.

[emphasis added]

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT POLICIES AVAILABLE AND ALL ARE A LOT
CHEAPER THAN HAVING TO LOSE YOUR $$ OR YOUR VACATION.


I'm sorry to point out that this last is not correct.
Casualty insurance alwasy cost more than it pays out.
This is becasue it has to pay sales commissions and other business
expences in addition to what it pays out. Insurance companies make money.

Because of this, the general rule is NOT to insure any loss you can
afford to sustain. Well, if you can't afford the cost of your vacation,
then stay home.

Also keep in mind that you will probably NOT loose all of your vacation
money. Most resorts and airlines will (inspite of the original posters
statements) make a full or partial refund under most conditions --
certainly if a hurrican makes thier providing the contracted services
impossible.

My advice is to SAVE the money you would pay for trip insurance.
Every few years you'll have saved enough to treat yourself to a
better vacation -- maybe even a "free" one.


--
dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

Dillon Pyron wrote:

On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:19:12 -0400, DrYak wrote:


Charlie,
Sorry, but it is all a bet. Look at the probabilities and the loss to
get the expected value or pay for insurance. And insurance companies
also invest your premium so they can lose all the premium and still show
a profit because of the investments.

This is no longer the case. This is one of the principle reasons
premiums have gone up. The insurance companies may claim 9/11, but
it's really the stock market. They just don't want to admit it.

So I usually decline the
"insurance" at Best Buy because they want too much to insure my new toy
maybe $25 for something that costs $100. Now if they would insure it
for $5 I'd probably take the insurance.

"What, is your product that crappy?" Although we usually do buy an
extended warranty on cars, if it's a zero deductible. But then again,
we keep our cars 7 years or longer.


That's one of the reasons that I object to the mandatory insurance.
We have to insure all our cars regardless of their open market value
to the same amount, and when we have an accident, they will only pay
the blue book value or something close to it. I had an uninsured
motorist hit me, and total an old but in perfect condition nicely
running car, and they would only give me $500 for it. I could not
replace the car for that amount.



Charlie Hammond wrote:
In article t,
"Skip Elliott Bowman" writes:


Hurricane season is June 1 through November 30, with most gales forming
mid-July through November. While this is no reason not to go or to cancel
existing plans, a prudent option would be to hedge your plans with
insurance.

[emphasis added]

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT POLICIES AVAILABLE AND ALL ARE A LOT
CHEAPER THAN HAVING TO LOSE YOUR $$ OR YOUR VACATION.


I'm sorry to point out that this last is not correct.
Casualty insurance alwasy cost more than it pays out.
This is becasue it has to pay sales commissions and other business
expences in addition to what it pays out. Insurance companies make money.

Because of this, the general rule is NOT to insure any loss you can
afford to sustain. Well, if you can't afford the cost of your vacation,
then stay home.

Also keep in mind that you will probably NOT loose all of your vacation
money. Most resorts and airlines will (inspite of the original posters
statements) make a full or partial refund under most conditions --
certainly if a hurrican makes thier providing the contracted services
impossible.

My advice is to SAVE the money you would pay for trip insurance.
Every few years you'll have saved enough to treat yourself to a
better vacation -- maybe even a "free" one.


grandma Rosalie

(Jan) wrote:

"Jess Englewood" wrote in message ...
"Charlie Hammond" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jess Englewood" writes:

"Rosalie B." wrote
..
The PRUDENT thing to do if you take a vacation during the hurricane
season is NOT to insure the vacation but to not spend any more than
you can afford to lose, and to have alternate plans.

Grandma Rosalie said that -- not me (Charlie Hammond) as your posting
seemed to indicate. No big deal -- I agree with the statement.

..
But in the end it is a personal decision. Whether or not anyone wants, or
does not want, to spend a few hundred bucks to possibly protect a few
thousand is not a matter of thriftiness or sensibility. But a matter of
personal comfort level with the expenditure.

I agree that it is a personal decision, related to personal comfort level.
However, over several years you will be spending a few thousand dollars,
not just a few hundered.

Doesn't matter what a person is spending, it matters why they are spending
it. And if a few hundred for one trip, or a few thousand over several years
of trips makes sense to *them*, then that, rather than what somebody else
with a different perspective tells you to do, is "PRUDENT".

Another angle is for those travelling from faraway - I've got a
feeling I read sometime back we have to have insurance for the US -
purely from the medical angle. That's why I take it out, same with
most countries, any kind of medical bill could wipe me out, or at
least seriously damage my tight budget. As I'm getting insurance for
that main expense, I go along with the lesser ones such as emergencies
and baggage.

I don't recall checking hurricane type of problems before in the small
print, but I probably will now.

I've had insurance for just about every overseas trip I've ever had
and apart from a few lost items, only really needed it one time. On
that trip I specifically had to have evacuation cover, and events came
to me nearly needing full-on emergency evacuation.

imo, medical problems are generally the main issue. So if I have an
accident in the Caribbean and need to go to Miami or similar, it'd be
more than a few holidays' insurance to equal the amount I'd pay for
treatment.

We have Medicare as our primary insurance now, with Tricare (military)
as the medigap policy. But we cannot buy travel insurance for
ourselves even if we wanted to because we are not traveling by a
scheduled carrier - we are traveling on our own boat.

And after the experience I had when I almost needed the insurance in
Belize and were told that particular problem would not be covered, I
decided that insurance was a waste of money.

Bob did have a heart attack at an uninhabited key in the Bahamas
(Shroud Cay in the Exumas). It took us 2 days to get ourselves and
the boat back to Nassau, where the hospital said he had 95% blockage
of one artery. They airlifted us to Miami where he had an angioplasty
and a stent put in. Medicare covered the Miami section. Much of the
rest was covered by Tricare but I had to pay up front and then claim
it from them. Anyway, in 3 weeks, we flew back to get the boat and
brought it back to the states and up to the Chesapeake.

I don't know that insurance would have helped us at all even if we
could get it.

Canadians have a better system - I think theirs pays anywhere in the
world that they go. Other countries other than the US probably are
also different.

Remember way back when, before we all realized we were not as smart as we
thought, and we used to say "it's all relative" in answer to almost every
quandary. Well, in some sense we were right.

And your only protecting agains some limited
situations -- you vacation dollars are still at sustantial ris for
uncovered situations.

There are differing levels of coverage, with of course differing levels of
expense. You have said that you don't buy trip insurance so I suspect you
may not be as familiar with it's many current iterations as someone who
does. There are some extraordinary policies out there. There are some real
crap policies as well.

And in my experience the amount your protecting --
the amount that wouldn't be refunded in any case -- is in the hundreds.

You are understating the case significantly. Acceptable reasons for loss are
pretty expansive and you only cover whatever expense you choose. It is
practically the very simplest insurance written, other than the jewelry
rider on your homeowners policy. I don't buy it often, but there are trips
in which I would be a fool not to. I generally buy it for any Pacific Rim or
Africa trip I take. The cases of trip interruption alone have made me more
than whole on every single dime I have spent on travel insurance.

grandma Rosalie

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...

We have Medicare as our primary insurance now, with Tricare (military)
as the medigap policy. But we cannot buy travel insurance for
ourselves even if we wanted to because we are not traveling by a
scheduled carrier - we are traveling on our own boat.

And after the experience I had when I almost needed the insurance in
Belize and were told that particular problem would not be covered, I
decided that insurance was a waste of money.

Bob did have a heart attack at an uninhabited key in the Bahamas
(Shroud Cay in the Exumas). It took us 2 days to get ourselves and
the boat back to Nassau, where the hospital said he had 95% blockage
of one artery. They airlifted us to Miami where he had an angioplasty
and a stent put in. Medicare covered the Miami section. Much of the
rest was covered by Tricare but I had to pay up front and then claim
it from them. Anyway, in 3 weeks, we flew back to get the boat and
brought it back to the states and up to the Chesapeake.

I don't know that insurance would have helped us at all even if we
could get it.

Canadians have a better system - I think theirs pays anywhere in the
world that they go. Other countries other than the US probably are
also different.

Because we travel so much part of my decision making process about family
medical coverage is who will cover us anywhere in the world or who has
availble service in most of the world.

I use Blue Cross Blue Shield, and we are covered anywhere in the world. If
the hospital or physician are in the PPO they we have the same office and
deductible cost, if they are not in the PPO we pay a higher rate deductible
and office rate. So far there is no place I have ever gone where Blue Cross
Blue Shield affilliates are not available. No where...PNG, Africa, Solomons,
Indonesia, Micronesia, China, Galapagos etc. My oldest daughter is living
and working in Spain, still covered under our policy because she is enrolled
in the US for Fall grad school, and has all the same benefits there as she
does here.

Before I travel I do a bit of research to locate the medical services
affiliated with BCBS in the countries we will be visiting. Of course I carry
supplemental insurance for med evac and chamber treatment.

IF I remember right chilly once posted that BCBS of Canada does not cover
members when traveling outside of the country.

"DrYak" wrote in message
news:CGdrc.34010$Md.22500@lakeread05...

Charlie,
Sorry, but it is all a bet. Look at the probabilities and the loss to
get the expected value or pay for insurance. And insurance companies
also invest your premium so they can lose all the premium and still show
a profit because of the investments. So I usually decline the
"insurance" at Best Buy because they want too much to insure my new toy
maybe $25 for something that costs $100. Now if they would insure it
for $5 I'd probably take the insurance.

I recently purchased a $400 open box camera from Best Buy for $100 and had
the camera insured for about $10. If it breaks, they'll probably give me a
brand new one (comparable or better), so it was well worth the risk (I've
actually thought about breaking it on purpose :-).




Charlie Hammond wrote:
In article t,
"Skip Elliott Bowman" writes:


Hurricane season is June 1 through November 30, with most gales forming
mid-July through November. While this is no reason not to go or to
cancel
existing plans, a prudent option would be to hedge your plans with
insurance.

[emphasis added]

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT POLICIES AVAILABLE AND ALL ARE A
LOT
CHEAPER THAN HAVING TO LOSE YOUR $$ OR YOUR VACATION.


I'm sorry to point out that this last is not correct.
Casualty insurance alwasy cost more than it pays out.
This is becasue it has to pay sales commissions and other business
expences in addition to what it pays out. Insurance companies make
money.

Because of this, the general rule is NOT to insure any loss you can
afford to sustain. Well, if you can't afford the cost of your vacation,
then stay home.

Also keep in mind that you will probably NOT loose all of your vacation
money. Most resorts and airlines will (inspite of the original posters
statements) make a full or partial refund under most conditions --
certainly if a hurrican makes thier providing the contracted services
impossible.

My advice is to SAVE the money you would pay for trip insurance.
Every few years you'll have saved enough to treat yourself to a
better vacation -- maybe even a "free" one.