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Time Share Scams



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 29th, 2006, 01:40 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
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Default Time Share Scams

[Cross-posted: rec.travel.usa-canada; rec.travel.europe;
rec.travel.misc.]

scamshare wrote:
My wife and I bought a timeshare


This is not, as it says below, the first of 7 posts. They're all
here. When it was written, posts were limited to about twelve hundred
characters. I have made no corrections to the what was written almost
sixteen years ago and posted to, apparently, a local BBS.

Not part of the following is how we got our "free cruise". If you're
interested, it's somewhere on the 'Net as it was more recent than a
decade ago. Ask me to look it up for you.


TIMESHARE SCAMs
--------------
This is the first of 7 posts totaling fewer than 8kb in 300 lines:
Except for the un-dated post, the following appeared on another
board. The last part was never posted due to technical difficulties.
For that reason, no responses are included.
===============================================
Sent: 08-31-90 08:59 From: Cheryl To: John
Subj: TIME SHARING (GOOD OR BAD?)
-----------------------------------------------
I personally wouldn't choose to invest in time sharing because my
tastes change over the years.
==============================================
Sent: 09-01-90 01:02 From: James To: John
Subj: TIME SHARING (GOOD OR BAD?)
----------------------------------------------
I live down in Florida were there has been a rash of timeshare
deals. The sales people have a high turn over because they've had a
hard time selling them. The catch comes if you turn to the
salesperson and say "Rent? No way. What's the total cost if I BUY
this little jewel?"
Take a deep breath if they come up with a real figure. (They
try to dodge that question hard). That little place is going to cost
close to a half million dollars.
The catch comes with the maintenance fee (or at least it did
when I went for the free [super el cheapo] gifts). They start out
with a small charge they can escalate at say five to ten percent a
year. In twenty years, that maintenance could cost you a European
vacation for a week's stay. They're counting on you NOT continuing to
pay for twenty years, so they can zing the next guy.
They get the gold mine, you get the shaft.
The only way I could see anyone coming out ahead on this sort
of a deal is elderly people who aren't going to be around more than
five or ten years anyway and have always stayed at the most expensive
hotels in the world.
The last timeshare I went to, they hadn't finished building
the place (and watch out for buying things they haven't built - an
old Florida real estate game). The salesman tossed aside that the $50
yearly cost to keep the place up could go up a MAXIMUM of only 18
percent. After the first year, he almost whispered under his breath,
they tack on an additional $100 for maid service, which is included
in the maintenance costs. Now add that in the $300 a year two week
rent and after ten years, I'll be staying in a five star place a lot
cheaper than him. Of course, if I held onto it for forty years, like
he recommended, I could pass it down to the grandkids. They'll let it
go for a down payment on the yacht.
Naturally, they stress that you can resell it later. Whoa!
Where am I going find a rich elderly couple? Resale, according to
real estate people, on a timeshare is next to impossible. Some of
those rich elderly people aren't so dumb. Those who are -- damn,
they're hard to find. Which is why the resales on time condos are so
slow.
-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --
================================================== ==
Sent: 09-06-90 00:38 From: ICONO CLAST To: James
Subj: TIME SHARING (GOOD OR BAD?)
----------------------------------------------------
Whenever you go to a timeshare hustle, take a calculator. Just for
the fun of it, though, ask the hustler to borrow one. Of the
countless times I've asked, none has ever had a calculator.
Then multiply that figure by the time factor of your occupancy
(26x2weeks, for example) to get the true asking price of the unit.
After having done that, the conversation is likely to terminate.
"WHAT!?!?!?!?" you might say. "You want to charge me umpteen
zillion megabucks for one lousy room??? First, I want to see you
perform a commonly referred to, but generally considered to be
impossible, sexual act."
================================================== ===
Sent: 09-10-90 01:09 From: ICONO CLAST To: James
Subj: TIME SHARING
-----------------------------------------------------
Most of the "selling points" I remember from subjecting myself to time
share pitches were easy for me to negate:
". . . and you'll have your own kitchen."
What? You want me to travel this far and have food prepared
the same as it is at home? I might as well STAY home.
". . . and you'll always have your time period . . ."
What? I'll have to come at the same time, year after year,
forever?
". . . and the same familiar unit."
So I'll always have to come here even though this isn't the
only place on Earth?
Yes, I know they offer transfers to other places but they also
have numerous, sometimes difficult, qualifications.
I have yet to visit a timeshare (and there've been many 'cause
I like the little "gifts") to which I'd like to return more than
once. They've all been lovely, had nice facilities, good locations,
and all sorts of other nice things to say about them.
On a particular campground offer, I figured that, to have any
economic feasibility whatsoever, I'd have to spend EVERY week-end for
about thirty years at the campground to break even with the current
KOA price.
I have yet to encounter a timeshare that in any way is better
than paying for vacation lodging in the usual way: by the day. And if
you do the numbers for a reasonable period (say 20 years), you'll
find that it would be difficult to spend even a fourth of what a
timeshare would cost.
Putting your money in a timeshare gives you worse odds than
putting it on green felt. In a casino, the odds against you (for
straight bets) are seldom greater than 6% (most are under 2%). The
timeshare odds against you are probably in the range of 99%. Can you
alter my opinion?

John: " . . . sure that it was a Great Deal that he offered the unit
for me to rent this fall for the really great price of $500 a week . . .
investigating on pricing for motels in the same area . . ."
$500 per week is "only" $71.50 per day. That's a bit high for
a motel but not bad for a hotel. It's really not a bad offer, but you
can, as you already believe, probably do better.

-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --
================================================== ==
Sent: 09-09-90 11:06 From: James To: ICONO CLAST
Subj: TIME SHARING (GOOD OR BAD?)
----------------------------------------------------
To brutally frank about it, Icono, the only reason I went to
timeshare sales pitches was that stuff they gave away to attend them.
(I wound up with three Timex Sinclairs ["Get a free computer"], two
gas grills that were so worthless that a light breeze would blow them
over and a promise that if I paid incredibly high shipping costs, I'd
get an Apple computer). The master plan was to re-sell these at a
local flea market.
It was almost impossible to hustle these gifts at the huge
(about 400 booths) flea market because about two thirds of the people
already had them in the booths and a large percentage of the
customers as well.
The funny thing about the whole dog and pony act was the way
they attempted to screen potential customers to make sure they could
buy the timeshare. They promised a "gift" if you told them you had a
steady job and made over $30,000 a year. Apparently every poor
working man figured out they could lie as well as the next guy. The
salesmen were busy but the sales were lacking.
I remember one salesman especially because he told me that the
laws governing the sales were Alabama's and not Florida's, which he
painted as being somewhat sleazy. Six months later cops shut down his
operation for fraud.
-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --
================================================== ==
Sent: 09-17-90 15:57 From: ICONO CLAST To: James
Subj: TIME SHARING
----------------------------------------------------
Saturday hence, I'm going to "be required to attend a 90 minute
promotional tour/sales presentation of one of our beautiful timeshare
resorts . . ." providing that I show up with some sort of
identification and a "major credit card or check book . . ." and a
person of the opposite gender in order to present the desired image.
What will I get in return for the 4.5 man-hours it's going to
take? I'm guaranteed to receive . . .
"One week's accommodations for 2 in Hawaii including roundtrip
[sic] airfare plus $1,000 cash. ($2,500 value)." According to this
week's travel section, the package is worth $718 making their $2,500
value worth $782 less than they claim. The odds of winning are 10M:1.
Or . . .
"3 days/2 nights accommodations for two at Lake Tahoe."
According to this week's travel section, one can fly to Tahoe and
stay in a hotel for three days and two nights for $99 per person.
(That's a good deal because other advertised rates are no lower than
$28 per person per night.) The odds of winning are 10M:4998.5.
[Last year, a friend and I were in a contest offering a first
prize of a Tahoe trip. We were hoping to get the second prize, a meal
in a local restaurant, and we were delighted that we did. The winners
of the Tahoe trip just gave it away after struggling to find someone
to accept it. Here, such premiums are common and of little value to
us. I'd guess that LA/Las Vegas, Phoenix/Laughlin, and New
York/Atlantic City offers are equally common and of equally little
value to people of those locales.] Or . . .
"$1000 cash." Odds: 10M:1. Or . . .
"4 days/3 nights accommodations for two in Mazatlan, Mexico."
According to this week's travel section, the cost, including air
fare, is $598. Air fare alone, for two, is $574. So the value of
their gift is an exciting $24. I think this will help you to
understand the Tahoe stuff above. And accommodations in Hawaii,
without air fare, are equally worthless. Odds: 10M:4,998.5. Or . . .
"$500 cash." Odds: 10M:1.
The venue is fewer than 20 miles from my home. It is
impossible to even give away the virtually worthless Tahoe and
Mazatlán accommodations prizes. It is therefore obvious that I hope
to win one of the other three. And that's probably true of everyone
else. The hustlers treat us as if we're stupid, but we're not and
neither are they. They know that very few of the "winners" of the
accommodations will ever take advantage of their "prize".
There oughta be a law!
================================================
Sent: 09-14-90 09:05 From: Cheryl To: Larry
Subj: TIME SHARING (GOOD OR BAD?)
------------------------------------------------
I haven't bought a time sharing unit because I heard only negative
things about the system.
-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --
=================
From: ICONO CLAST
-----------------
WE WON! We won "THREE DAYS and TWO NIGHTS! in exciting LAKE
TAHOE" about a mile from the state line the other side of which one
finds the casinos.
Here's how you collect:

"*There is a $40.00 reservation fee which is completely
refundable prior to your departure.
*All reservations must be made 60 days in advance.
*You must be 21 years of age.
*Good for lodging only.
*This offer good for Tuesday arrivals only."

The $40 deposit must be sent within thirty days. Then, sixty
(not 59, not 61) days prior to your arrival, make a reservation. If
you're under or over age 21, the offer isn't valid. (Yes, I know what
they mean but literate people know how to SAY what they mean. I hope
that you always know what I mean even though I may not've said it.)
As I previously said, you can't even GIVE away these worthless
"prizes."
We left home at 1:35 and returned at 4:05 (five man hours).
The odometer turned 39.8 miles while burning about $1.75 worth of
gasoline.
We were there just about the 90 minutes promised. We had
coffee. We were not required to identify ourselves nor flash a credit
card or check book.
The unfortunate young man who was assigned to us was pleasant,
friendly, competent, and not stupid. But (surprise!) he didn't have a
calculator.
An unusual aspect of the hustle is that he had already
hand-written the figures and such that he used to present the scam.
We were promised a lack of pressure and that proved to be true. He
pushed gently and inoffensively.
(I asked where a particularly spectacular photograph of waves
crashing against rocks had been taken. He said he didn't know but
guessed that it was Arizona[!]. The rock formation was clearly of a
type that one commonly sees in Southern Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona
but I wonder where he thought the waves came from.)
One week of this particular scam costs $6900 or $600 down and
$130 per month for seven years including 14% (that's FOURTEEN!)
interest. In July, I went loan-hunting and the highest rate anyone
wanted to charge was about 10.38%, 30 years fixed.
-------------------------------------------------
[Unless you're interested in how I arrived at my conclusion, please
skip the next post.]
-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --

[Unless you're interested in how I arrived at my conclusion, please
go to the next, and final, post.]
In addition, there's an annual maintenance fee of $200. Let's
see:
$600 + (12 x 7 x $130) + $200 x 7 = $12,920 + $200 x 13 years
= $15,520 + unearned interest, at 5% on $12,920 for 13 years ($8,398)
= $23,918 / 20 years = $1,195.90 per week per year or $170.84 per day.
In 20 years, they're getting 51 times that amount or
$1,219,818!!! assuming they carry the loan themselves.
At 5%, that same $23,918 can net you about $1000 per year and
you won't be stuck with a piece of property that's extremely
difficult to dump. Also, you're not likely to spend $171 per day for
a vacation resort accommodation for several years hence, so there's
NO way you can get fair value for the money spent in a time-share
condominium as, at first glance, inexpensive as this one.
At $6900 for one bedroom for one week, they're getting
$351,900 plus an additional $10,200, a total of $362,100. They
reserve one week out of the year for maintenance, thus 51, not 52
weeks. The unit is located in the Rocky Mountain range at a place
called Silver Spring (I think . . . Silver something in Colorado).
That has to be a great business to have providing one can sleep
knowing what's been done.
Let's assume that, for each group of 10 units there's a maid;
for each 50 units there's a grounds/pool keeper and a
maintenance/repair person. And let's also assume that there are five
hundred units in the resort project. In this country, the maids might
cost $26M * 50 = $1,300,000 per year, the grounds/pool keepers
$31M*10=$310M per year, and the maintenance/repair people
$42M*10=$420M per year, a total of $2,030,000. Let's add $50M for
each of two on-site managers ($100M), $80M for the managers'
secretaries; $35M for an accountant, $30M for a full-charge
bookkeeper, and $25M for each of four clerks, an additional $345,000
bringing the amount to $2,375,000 for on-site expenses. Add another
20 percent for supplies and materials for a grand total of on-site
expenses of a round $2,850,000.
The maintenance charge is from $200-$400 depending on the size
of the unit. Let's say that 100 units pay $200=$1,020,000, 100 units
pay $250 = $1,275,000, 100 units pay $300 = $1,538,000, 100 units pay
$350=$1,785,000, and 100 units pay $400=$2,040,000, a total of
$7,658,000. How can they possibly charge so much when their expenses
are are less than 40% of the amount collected?

-- MORE --
-- CONTINUED --

And how can they justify that charge when they have projects
all over the world. India and Mexico I remember from a glance at
their map. In Mexico today, a school teacher I know is paid $171 per
month, 7.8% of the wage of the maids in our hypothetical expenses.
7.8% of $2,850,000 is $222,300. But don't you just know that a
maid is paid less than a school teacher? Also, the initial cost of
the project would be far less than here.
That shows how they enrich themselves even further; by taking
advantage of the poorest of the poor! I'm not saying that US wages
should be paid wherever US firms do business.
[Because it was the only place open at about 4 a.m., I dropped
into the coffee shop of the Sheraton Lima for a cup of coffee. The
bill came to US$0.75 for that cup of coffee. At that time, the
minimum wage was US$4 per day! The Peruvian who served that cup of
coffee saw me pay what took her an hour and a half to earn. Multiply
your own hourly wage rate by 1.5 to imagine how she might have felt.
At $5 an hour, that cup of coffee would have been $7.50! I don't
remember what I paid for coffee elsewhere, but I know it was
substantially less!]

FINALLY, while engaging in small talk, as all good salespeople do, I
commented that I write things and promised that I'd provide him a
sample before leaving. When we arrived at the elevator to leave, I
handed him a print of the dated posts above. THEN she asked "Where is
the toilet?" and he, and several others, read those posts while I
stood there! One woman was "highly offended" by my comments and I was
angrily challenged by several of them.
I would be pleased to learn that I'm wrong and that these
apparent scams aren't what they seem. Sure, you can attack the
specifics of my hypothetical expenses (even though I think they're
extremely generous) but not their charges because they're what they
told me today, the 22nd of September, 1990.

-- FIN --

-- __________________________________________________ ______________
A San Franciscan who's stickin' t'the union!
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ --- http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 ------- IClast at Gmail com






































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  #2  
Old March 29th, 2006, 02:57 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time Share Scams


"Icono Clast" wrote in message
om...
[Cross-posted: rec.travel.usa-canada; rec.travel.europe;
rec.travel.misc.]

scamshare wrote:
My wife and I bought a timeshare and so on....


Caveat emptor


  #3  
Old March 29th, 2006, 03:28 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time Share Scams

Larthuza wrote:
"Icono Clast" wrote in message
om...
[Cross-posted: rec.travel.usa-canada; rec.travel.europe;
rec.travel.misc.]

scamshare wrote:
My wife and I bought a timeshare and so on....


Caveat emptor



Sic semper tyrannis!



--
Seinfeld Lists http://tinyurl.com/f7k9d
California Photos http://tinyurl.com/ann2l
Sawyer's Nicknames http://tinyurl.com/gowma
  #4  
Old March 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time Share Scams


"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" wrote in message
.. .
Larthuza wrote:
"Icono Clast" wrote in message
om...
[Cross-posted: rec.travel.usa-canada; rec.travel.europe;
rec.travel.misc.]

scamshare wrote:
My wife and I bought a timeshare and so on....


Caveat emptor



Sic semper tyrannis!



--
Seinfeld Lists http://tinyurl.com/f7k9d
California Photos http://tinyurl.com/ann2l
Sawyer's Nicknames http://tinyurl.com/gowma



De gustibus non est disputandum.

  #5  
Old March 29th, 2006, 05:29 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time Share Scams

"Icono Clast" wrote in message
[...]
My wife and I bought a timeshare and so on....
Caveat emptor

Sic semper tyrannis!

De gustibus non est disputandum.


There's a sucker born every minute.

(Sorry, don't know how to say that in Latin.)
  #6  
Old March 29th, 2006, 09:23 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Time Share Scams


"Caveat" wrote in message
...
"Icono Clast" wrote in message

[...]
My wife and I bought a timeshare and so on....
Caveat emptor
Sic semper tyrannis!

De gustibus non est disputandum.


There's a sucker born every minute.

(Sorry, don't know how to say that in Latin.)


In omni minuto fellator natus est???? Just guessing! Hmm, if the sucker's
female, maybe it should be "fellatrix nata est".... Oh, not that kind of
sucker???

Alan Harrison


 




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