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Comparative French standard of living improvements
INSEE is the French statistical research institute which measures a number of things, its web site provides information in English and some of the reports are in English. http://www.insee.fr/en/home/home_page.asp One report I down loaded was on "The living standards of French households between 1970-1999² by Guillemin and Roux. The report uses data which is more detailed than I have been able to extract from the US census economic data. The French report computes family standard of livings by dividing the family income by the number of consumption units, calculated on the basis of 1 for one person, plus 0.5 for adults over 14 and 0.3 for children under. Thus a family of two adults and two children would have 2.1 cus, and the family income divided by that to get the standard of living. Here the income used is "disposible" income which takes into account taxes (income, home taxes deducted) and transfers (added). So one can not compare these figures with the US figures which are income per family. But the % improvement data is comparable. Next the French report breaks down the date in to deciles, each 10% of of the income earning populations, while most of the American data divides by 20% hunks, except for the top 5%. So the comparison I make between what has happened in the US and France are not fully comparable but indicative. Some important points in France 1) Effect of transfers: The lowest 10% In France have standard of livings which are composed of 35% transfers. Thus they earn 65% and are given 35%. This means their incomes are increased about 50% because of transfers. This is probably the reason why poverty rates are much lower in France than the USA. Transfers diminish in importance as incomes rise, representing about 20% in the second decile (10-20% group). 2) The impact of taxes increases with income, no surprise, reaching to about 30% in the top 10% group. 3) Since 1970 the overall median standard of living has risen at an average of 2.6% per year. However, the median rise in the 1970-79 period was 5.3%/yr followed by stagnation, 0.5% (79-84), 1.1% (84-90), 0.5%(90-97) and 2.2% (97-99) (per year data). The lowest income group did the best, with the D1 lowest decile 7.2%, 2.0%, 0.6%, 3.2% for these time periods and 3.9% per year overall. The top D10 ncome group improved 1.6% overall, 3.2%, 0.4%, 0.6%, 0.5% and 2.3%. The retirees did better than either with 4.8% this improvement strongest with the retirees in the D1 group at the bottom. Next the ratio of the standard of livings of the highest group and lowest decreased in the total time period from 4.8 to 3.3% conclusion: there is no indication from this data that the rich are getting richer, proportionally, and the poor, poorer in France. Not quite the same data can be extracted from the US census data. However from Table H-3 of the historical income for families the 1981-2001 average incomes improved in the following fashion in inflation corrected 2001 dollars, lowest 20%: $8,995 = $10,136, 13% total or 0.7%/yr top 20%, $92,894 = $145,970, 57% total or 2.9%/yr the top 5% $132,239 = $260,464, 97% or 4.9%/yr The ratio $145,97/$10,136 is around 14-15. So the conclusion is that in the US, incomes has stagnated for the lowest rank. In fact the % income improvement for the 20-40% and the 40-60% in the use are about the same as for the lowest income group, 0.9% each, and 1.3%/yr for the 60-80% group. One has to be in the top 20% to win out in the American economy. The well off in France do about as well as in the US but the poorer do better. Earl |
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
Good website:
I would always prefer to eat in a French restaurant, purchase clothes in France and the French put out some of the best aviation and electronics equipment in the world, are at the forefront of pharma technology etc. Economics is one of my babies, however -- there is so much more mobility within the American economy that it goes unappreciated across the pond -- you have to look at families over time, or "longitudinally" -- as immigration to the US is always filling in the lowest ranks. Immigration has its social costs, but virtually assures that the US population will increase by at lesat 50% by the end of this century. OTOH, the opposite is true in many European countries. It is also necessary to compare incomes on an after-tax basis. The lowest deciles in the US pay virtually no income tax, have very little withheld from their wages except for social security (6.2%) and medicare (1.45%). Sales tax in the US averages 6% to 8% -- how does that stack up with VAT? Not necessarily all good things, but I bet that the lowest decile family in the US has more cars, TV's and a higher caloric intake (bad) than the average lowest decile frenchman or woman. Probably knows how to work a leafblower and lay bricks too! "Earl Evleth" wrote in message ... INSEE is the French statistical research institute which measures a number of things, its web site provides information in English and some of the reports are in English. http://www.insee.fr/en/home/home_page.asp One report I down loaded was on "The living standards of French households between 1970-1999² by Guillemin and Roux. The report uses data which is more detailed than I have been able to extract from the US census economic data. The French report computes family standard of livings by dividing the family income by the number of consumption units, calculated on the basis of 1 for one person, plus 0.5 for adults over 14 and 0.3 for children under. Thus a family of two adults and two children would have 2.1 cus, and the family income divided by that to get the standard of living. Here the income used is "disposible" income which takes into account taxes (income, home taxes deducted) and transfers (added). So one can not compare these figures with the US figures which are income per family. But the % improvement data is comparable. Next the French report breaks down the date in to deciles, each 10% of of the income earning populations, while most of the American data divides by 20% hunks, except for the top 5%. So the comparison I make between what has happened in the US and France are not fully comparable but indicative. Some important points in France 1) Effect of transfers: The lowest 10% In France have standard of livings which are composed of 35% transfers. Thus they earn 65% and are given 35%. This means their incomes are increased about 50% because of transfers. This is probably the reason why poverty rates are much lower in France than the USA. Transfers diminish in importance as incomes rise, representing about 20% in the second decile (10-20% group). 2) The impact of taxes increases with income, no surprise, reaching to about 30% in the top 10% group. 3) Since 1970 the overall median standard of living has risen at an average of 2.6% per year. However, the median rise in the 1970-79 period was 5.3%/yr followed by stagnation, 0.5% (79-84), 1.1% (84-90), 0.5%(90-97) and 2.2% (97-99) (per year data). The lowest income group did the best, with the D1 lowest decile 7.2%, 2.0%, 0.6%, 3.2% for these time periods and 3.9% per year overall. The top D10 ncome group improved 1.6% overall, 3.2%, 0.4%, 0.6%, 0.5% and 2.3%. The retirees did better than either with 4.8% this improvement strongest with the retirees in the D1 group at the bottom. Next the ratio of the standard of livings of the highest group and lowest decreased in the total time period from 4.8 to 3.3% conclusion: there is no indication from this data that the rich are getting richer, proportionally, and the poor, poorer in France. Not quite the same data can be extracted from the US census data. However from Table H-3 of the historical income for families the 1981-2001 average incomes improved in the following fashion in inflation corrected 2001 dollars, lowest 20%: $8,995 = $10,136, 13% total or 0.7%/yr top 20%, $92,894 = $145,970, 57% total or 2.9%/yr the top 5% $132,239 = $260,464, 97% or 4.9%/yr The ratio $145,97/$10,136 is around 14-15. So the conclusion is that in the US, incomes has stagnated for the lowest rank. In fact the % income improvement for the 20-40% and the 40-60% in the use are about the same as for the lowest income group, 0.9% each, and 1.3%/yr for the 60-80% group. One has to be in the top 20% to win out in the American economy. The well off in France do about as well as in the US but the poorer do better. Earl |
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
Earl Evleth writes:
The well off in France do about as well as in the US but the poorer do better. Since being poor isn't a desirable state anywhere, that is scant consolation. The unstated part is that it is much more difficult to become rich in France--it is almost necessary to be born into it. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
Dans l'article , Mxsmanic a écrit : Since being poor isn't a desirable state anywhere, that is scant consolation. The unstated part is that it is much more difficult to become rich in France--it is almost necessary to be born into it. The question is how rich do you have to be? We have a friend who arrived here as a poor Greek immigrant, became a university professor with a good salary, and now has a very comfortable retirement and owns two homes. We have another friend, Syrian, one of nine children, who came to France, got a research position, is also doing well enough to be a homeowner and support his two sons through college. Neither of these people are among the very rich, but they are certainly better off now than what they were born into. Donna Evleth |
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
Donna Evleth writes:
The question is how rich do you have to be? Rich enough to not have to worry about getting rich. We have a friend who arrived here as a poor Greek immigrant, became a university professor with a good salary, and now has a very comfortable retirement and owns two homes. Wow. We have another friend, Syrian, one of nine children, who came to France, got a research position, is also doing well enough to be a homeowner and support his two sons through college. Neither of these people are among the very rich, but they are certainly better off now than what they were born into. Some people don't aspire to much. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
Earl Evleth writes:
I assume you are speaking from experience. From observation. What have you attained in life, by the way! Nothing. But only from lack of competence, not lack of aspiration. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
#10
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Comparative French standard of living improvements
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:00:31 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote: On 4/03/04 14:01, in article , "John Walton" wrote: It is also necessary to compare incomes on an after-tax basis. The lowest deciles in the US pay virtually no income tax, have very little withheld from their wages except for social security (6.2%) and medicare (1.45%). Sales tax in the US averages 6% to 8% -- how does that stack up with VAT? The standard of living data presented INSEE is after income and house taxes but not VAT. VAT is not large for the essentials, like food. Another factor in France is the universal health coverage, which is missing for a large portion of low income Americans. Wrong. They can all get it for free by simply going to the emergency room of any hospital that gets Federal funds. Which is all of them. Take public transportation. A retired person, with an income tax lower than a certain threshold get a free yearly bus and metro pass. Those employed in the Parisian area have employer contributions to the purchase of a transportation card or carte orange. Likewise, lunch meals are partly subsidized in an amount which varies downward as one income rises. There is absolutely nothing free about these benefits or others like healthcare that Europeans are always crowing about. You pay for them daily in all the taxes you pay over there (much higher than in the US) and then make the completely false claim that they are somehow free. A completely ridiculous argument. Prepaying through taxes is hardly free. |
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