Advice needed for trip to SF, LV & LA (from UK)

Rincewind wrote:
Mike Groves wrote:
San Francisco
I'd recommend 3 or more nights.

Excellent suggestion.

There's loads to see, especially for the kids - street cars
(get to the termini early to avoid queues);

Except for the times workers are going to and from their jobs, there
should be no lines to board our superb collection of street cars from
around the world. You might have to wait to get on a cable car,
though.

Recommend looking at [a commercial site] for info.

I emphatically don't!!! Not only are they full of mis-information, the
one you mentioned is the unnamed subject of a prominent caveat on the
"San Francisco" page at the site at Right in the sig, to wit:

"CAVEAT EMPTOR
"Commercial sites and publications should be regarded with extreme
skepticism because they are more likely to recommend those who
advertise with them, regardless of quality, in preference to The Best
who mightn't advertise with them. Further, such sites and publications
might not have what you seek only because they do not pay to be
mentioned. You are advised, regardless of where you travel, to ask
local people about commercial sites' and publications'
recommendations."

As an example of mis-information, they list a restaurant at "550 Geary
Blvd." There is no such address! Geary Boulevard begins with the
address 1300. From 0-1299, it's Geary Street.

I a;so recommend a Gray Line tour

Excellent suggestion!

If you want a cheaper stay, stop at Carson City - it's like
LV, but designed by Ned Flanders.

Bad idea. Las Vegas is truly unique. It must be experienced. There is
no substitute [There's a "Las Vegas" page at the site at Right in the
sig]. If one's sole interest is gambling, Club Cal-Neva in Reno has
conditions similar to downtown 'Vegas.

1 night at Las Vegas

Long old drive from Mammoth, but a scenic drive down the 395
to the desert.

True. Even longer, but much better, is going through Death Valley.

2 nights somewhere near the Grand Canyon

If you are after more rides than theme shops go to Knotts Berry Farm,

I agree. And, a roller-coaster freak, Knott's has one, Ghostrider,
that's a damn good ride.

also in Anaheim, and it's cheaper!!

Cheaper, yes, but it's in Buena Park, not Anaheim.

there's an authentic ghost town near the east entry to Yosemite

Bodie. Well worth the visit!

The views and expressions contained in this message do not
necessarily coincide with those of my employer.

Good thing!
__________________________________________________ ___________
A San Franciscan in 47.335 mile² San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Many thanks to all the people who have responded, our trip has changed
quite a bit due to all your suggestions.

So the final or (near final!) version is;

Fly to SF and stay a couple of days,

Head over to Yosemite -- I've managed to book a cabin at Curry Village
for 3 nights. By the way both Cedar Lodge and Curry Village still seem
to have accomodation for most of May/June.

Then drive down through Kings Canyon and Sequoia stay somewhere near
there, maybe Visalia.

Then head over to Death Valley and stay a night at Furnace Creek (my 8
year old son has just done a geography project on "extreme" places in
the world which included Death Valley and against my better judgement
he's persuaded us to go there!)

Then have a couple of days at Zion and Bryce followed by 2 days at the
GC south rim.

Head back to LA for a couple of days at Disney etc.

Fly home completely knackered and ready for a holiday !!

We've avoided Las Vegas -- neither my wife or I are in to gambling and
the place holds no appeal for us at all. Also the people over on
alt.travel.las-vegas certainly seem against kids in Vegas, so we're
happy to oblige ;-) although we may take a drive along the strip on
our way to Zion just to say that we've been!!

Especial thanks to the person(s) who suggested Zion & Bryce -- we
wouldn't have thought of going there without you!

Cheers and keep up the good work.

Mike

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:35:08 GMT, Mike Groves Mike@com wrote:
Then head over to Death Valley and stay a night at Furnace Creek (my 8
year old son has just done a geography project on "extreme" places in
the world which included Death Valley and against my better judgement
he's persuaded us to go there!)

If you've got any Star Wars fans, you might want to walk a bit of
the Titus Canyon area... you'll recognize bits of it from the first
film. The breccia in the canyon is pretty spectacular.

Also, be *very*, *very* careful to keep hydrated. Unless you've been
in desert areas before, it's difficult to imagine the amount of water
(not alcohol or caffeinated beverages) that you need to consume to keep
hydrated. You're sweating and losing water, but you don't feel it...
until you go down in a heap. *thirst is not a reliable indicator of
dehydration* Also, early morning is prime desert viewing
time, especially if you're not well acclimated to heat (which takes
several weeks).
http://www.utahmountainbiking.com/fi.../heatstrok.htm
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/ics/hea_medb4.htm
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsCondit...austioncc.html

I've not been there, but have had friends tell me that Maturango Museum,
near Death Valley, is pretty good for the natural history of the area.
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~matmus, as is the Furnace Creek visitor's
center in the park.

Kay

Once upon a 1/12/04 6:35 AM, in the land of
, the very good"Mike Groves" from
Mike@com wrote:

Many thanks to all the people who have responded, our trip has changed
quite a bit due to all your suggestions.

So the final or (near final!) version is;

Fly to SF and stay a couple of days,

Head over to Yosemite -- I've managed to book a cabin at Curry Village
for 3 nights. By the way both Cedar Lodge and Curry Village still seem
to have accomodation for most of May/June.

Then drive down through Kings Canyon and Sequoia stay somewhere near
there, maybe Visalia.

I would stay within the park if possible. From Yosemite, you'll have to
drop back down into the Central Valley, from about 5000 ft (1500 m)
elevation almost to sea level, then climb back up into the mountains to 6000
ft (1800 m) to get to Sequoia. Staying outside of the park will require
another (very steep) drive down back out of the mountains yet again. You
may want to skip Kings Canyon itself, as it's a long drive down into it and
back again, and you'll have just been to Yosemite. Kings Canyon is
impressive, but doesn't have the steep walled cliffs like Yosemite. On the
other hand, the trees at Sequoia are more impressive than those at Yosemite,
especially in the Giant Forest. And there are impressive views at the
southern edge of Giant Forest, from Moro Rock and other places nearby.

Wuksachi Lodge is near the center of the park, probably your best bet.
There's lodging in the Grant Grove area of Kings Canyon NP, (which isn't in
the canyon itself), but it's a long drive from there to Giant Forest.

Then head over to Death Valley and stay a night at Furnace Creek (my 8
year old son has just done a geography project on "extreme" places in
the world which included Death Valley and against my better judgement
he's persuaded us to go there!)

Then have a couple of days at Zion and Bryce followed by 2 days at the
GC south rim.

Head back to LA for a couple of days at Disney etc.

Fly home completely knackered and ready for a holiday !!

We've avoided Las Vegas -- neither my wife or I are in to gambling and
the place holds no appeal for us at all. Also the people over on
alt.travel.las-vegas certainly seem against kids in Vegas, so we're
happy to oblige ;-) although we may take a drive along the strip on
our way to Zion just to say that we've been!!

Especial thanks to the person(s) who suggested Zion & Bryce -- we
wouldn't have thought of going there without you!

Cheers and keep up the good work.

Mike

Mike@com (Mike Groves) wrote:
our trip has changed quite a bit due to all your suggestions.

My goodness! You asked for advice, got advice, and accepted advice.
Bravo!

Then head over to Death Valley and stay a night at Furnace Creek (my 8
year old son has just done a geography project on "extreme" places in
the world which included Death Valley and against my better judgement
he's persuaded us to go there!)

Good for him! He's right! Death Valley is quite beautiful and, if it's
"warm", it's quite an experience.

Kay Lancaster already mentioned drinking lots of water but let me
elaborate a bit upon that.

During your travels, gather all the 1-gallon glass bottles you can
find and fill them while in the mountains, perhaps Bishop. You would
be wise to fill every empty space in the car you can with those
bottles. If you're the boss of the family, be prepared to ORDER
everyone to drink, drink, drink.

we may take a drive along the strip on our way to Zion just to say
that we've been!!

Plan on it! It's fun and, if you're in a traffic jam, consider
yourself lucky as it'll give you time to see what can be seen from the
street. If you decide to set foot there, just pull into any
hotel/casino lot or garage.
__________________________________________________ ___________
A San Franciscan who's visited 49 of 50 US states
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Then head over to Death Valley and stay a night at Furnace Creek (my 8
year old son has just done a geography project on "extreme" places in
the world which included Death Valley and against my better judgement
he's persuaded us to go there!)

Good for him! He's right! Death Valley is quite beautiful and, if it's
"warm", it's quite an experience.

I hope so! This is the bloke who wanted to go to Norway or Iceland
this year not Death Valley!! I normally start complaining when the
mercury hits 26 or 27 degrees. Last year I found it hard going in the
UK when the temp reached 36 degrees (mid 90s F), although it was a
more humid suffocating heat than that usually felt in hotter desert
climes.


Kay Lancaster already mentioned drinking lots of water but let me
elaborate a bit upon that.

During your travels, gather all the 1-gallon glass bottles you can
find and fill them while in the mountains, perhaps Bishop. You would
be wise to fill every empty space in the car you can with those
bottles. If you're the boss of the family, be prepared to ORDER
everyone to drink, drink, drink.

Well, I like to think I'm the boss but as noted above I lost out on
where to go on holiday this year! Although I'm really looking forward
to it now!

I've read all the dire warnings on loads of websites now so I'm
convinced how serious this is. We'll be there early June and it looks
like its going to be in the high 90s or even hotter.

Cheers

Mike

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:44:53 GMT, Mike@com (Mike Groves) wrote:


I've read all the dire warnings on loads of websites now so I'm
convinced how serious this is. We'll be there early June and it looks
like its going to be in the high 90s or even hotter.

The average June daily high temp in DV ranges from about 103F on
the first day of the month to 114F by the end of the month. Daily
record highs range from 117F to 128F.

The average daily low temps in June range from 76F to 90F; these
are the cool parts of the mornings, of course.

See http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/lasvegas/dea...ey_records.htm

The air is very. very dry, with the result that sweat evaporates
as soon as it leaves the sweat pores; no sweat pouring down your
body making your shirt sloppy wet. This helps cool you, just as
human evolution in Africa intended, but it also means that you
can be unaware of the copious amounts of bodily water you are
dumping to the atmosphere. When out in such heat be sure to drink
water even if you are not all that thirsty.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Mike Groves" Mike@com wrote in message
...


I've read all the dire warnings on loads of websites now so I'm
convinced how serious this is. We'll be there early June and it looks
like its going to be in the high 90s or even hotter.


It will but dont get too overwrought, unless you are heading out on a
4WD safari there'll be plenty of other traffic about so you
are unlikley to die waiting for rescue

The biggest risk is heat stroke and you can counter that risk
by drinking lots of water when in the heat, a litre per hour
is a good guide if exercising strenuously and WEAR A HAT.

A large percentage of heat absorption (and loss in cold climates)
occurs through the scalp, a broad brimmed hat may not be
fashionable but it helps avoid heat exhaustion and sunburn.

Stop at a local supermarket and buy a couple of gallons of water
and refill your bottles from them. Get or make a reflective aluminium
sun shade and put it in the vehicle when parked.

There are places in DV NP where it can be refreshingly
cool, Dantes View overlooks the valley from an altitude
of several thousand feet and is 30 or more degrees
cooler than the valley floor

The biggest problem you are likley to find is having
the vehicle overheat especially on long climbs
like the one over the Town pass from Panamint Springs
so watch that temperature gauge and if it starts to climb
turn off the AC. and open the windows.

Keith

Kay Lancaster already mentioned drinking lots of water but let me
elaborate a bit upon that.

During your travels, gather all the 1-gallon glass bottles you can
find and fill them while in the mountains, perhaps Bishop. You would
be wise to fill every empty space in the car you can with those
bottles. If you're the boss of the family, be prepared to ORDER
everyone to drink, drink, drink.

Gallon glass bottles tend to be in rather short supply, not to mention
fragile in comparison with the more common plastic bottles (and prefilled
liter bottles are pretty commonly found in cases of 16-24 in large retailers
like K-mart and Walmart for $4-8, if convenience is a factor). My
recollection of the quality of publicly available tap water in Death Valley
is that it's pretty mineralized; however that's from 20 years ago, and
I'm willing to be corrected. An ice chest will also be useful, as will
something to block the sun into your car windows when the vehicle is parked.
Choking down sun-heated water is not a good idea.

Ordering people to drink is one solution... it's also useful to know the
physical signs of being dry, like sticky gums (instead of moist) and
skin that "tents" and doesn't snap back like normal when pinched enough
that you can lift it a bit and then let go (try forearm skin). Shrivelled
fingertips and swollen feet are a couple of other things to look for, though
that's usually a sign of more severe dehydration or heat exhaustion.

My personal guideline has always been that if you don't have to urinate
a normal amount at least twice a day (and preferably three or four times),
it's time to increase the water or fruit juice consumption. Many people also
experience depressed appetites in high heat, so sodium intake can become
a problem. Salty foods, rather than salt tablets, work better for most
people I know.

Death Valley, and deserts in general, are fascinating places. However, it's
easy, given air conditioning in buildings and air conditioned cars, to
forget that these are places where conditions are pretty far out of normal
human adaptation ranges, and we'd best pay attention to that. Hate to see
a trip brought to a halt by something easily prevented if you're wary.
Many of the places you're intending to visit can dehydrate you quite easily,
especially in the summer.

Kay Lancaster

Mike Groves wrote:

Hello,

I'm thinking about going to the west coast in early June this year
(from the UK), and need some advice on what to do, where to go etc.
I've only ever been to the East coast before, never the west, and the
rest of my family have only been as far as France before.

We're a family of 4 who enjoy the outdoors, hiking etc. (kids aged 11
& 8). We're flying into San Francisco and will probably spend a couple
of nights there at Fisherman's Wharf.

READ! READ! READ! READ!

MAKE SURE YOU START *NOW* FINDING A RENTAL CAR IN SAN FRANCISCO THAT YOU
CAN DRIVE WITH UNLIMITED MILES AND DROP OFF AT THE END OF YOUR ULTIMATE
DESTINATION!

YES IT EXISTS.

CHECK!




I was then thinking of heading over to Yosemite and staying 3 nights
there.

I wouldn't recommend Yosemite to my worst enemy as it's reputation FAR
outstrips the reality of Yosemite. There are far better places to go in
the Sierras - SUCH AS KING's CANYON - BUT given you're coming from several
thousands of miles, yes then go to Yosemite. BUT plan to stay in foothill
towns of El Portal or Mariposa or BETTER; Oakhurst.

For the RIP-OFF price of staying in Curry Village you can get a decent
motel in any of the aforementioned foothill towns for a WAY better price
with better comfort and the drive to Yosemite valley is nothing.




Then heading over to Lake Tahoe for 2 nights.

Let's cut to the chase.

Forgot Lake Tahoe.

Lake is a ******** full of bourgeois/yuppie-induced pollution. You miss
NOTHING by avoiding this ********. Lake Geneva is better

DRIVE STRAIGHT FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO YOSEMITE (BUT READ ON!).





1 night maybe at Mammoth or Bishop

Mammoth is a Tahoe lite: a los angele- crowd bourgeois/yuppie-filled
******** without a big lake (and trust me, you miss NOTHING about the
"postpile N.M.").

Go straight to Bishop.

In Bishop you'll have god's view of the eastern Sierras. AND you won't
get RIPPED-OFF for lodging like you WILL in Mammoth.

From Bishop you'll have access to Bishop Creek Canyon and Big Creek
Canyon. TRUST ME, you will talk to god in those places. BUT bring warm
clothing as it's a high elevation location.





1 night at Las Vegas

Vegas is a sad, sad, SAD place. If you don't believe me all you have to
do is walk 2 blocks on either side of the Vegas "strip" and you WILL see
the REALITY of Vegas.





Followed by 2 nights in Anaheim for the kids' demanded visit to
Disney.

June?

Expect ABSOLUTE HELL.


I've read a few of the earlier postings and I'm wondering if we should
head down the coast a bit from SF and miss out Tahoe? What about the
Sequoia NP?

You ARE much better off going down to Monterey/Big Sur via California
State Highway 1 from San Francisco and then heading to KINGS CANYON (via
California State Highway 156 - CONSULT A MAP) .




Any alternatives or "must see" places that I've missed? Should we book
hotels, motels in advance or do you think it's OK to turn up on the
day? I'll be booking for Yosemite for sure!

If you REALLY want to see something that will take your breath away in
June...... go north and see Mount Shasta..... OR go to Humboldt Redwoods
State Park - NOT Redwood National Park...... TRUST ME..... at Humboldt
Redwoods S.P. YOU WILL BE "TALKING TO GOD"!





Thanks for any help in advance.

Cheers

Mike