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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
which illustrates the fallacy about what the "old" system assumed - not
using the aircraft ITSELF as a weapon. Focusing on the "old rules" of "hijack" rather than the "new' (as in 'current') rules of hijack - what goes on the back of the aircraft is SECONDARY to prevention of the take-over of the aircraft controls itself and that pax will take whatever action they can to prevent the situation from manifesting itself. Contrary to what they will undoubtedly find, as was demonstrated by the Pennsylvania plane, once it became clear that the intent was to crash the plane somewhere, the PAX took action (exactly what the result of that action (as in speculation that the hijackers crashed in order to prevent capture) was will probably either never be known or alternsatively never be released). That action can be expected to be repeated as a FIRST rebuff to any attempt to commandeer an aircraft. Which is also why I support the position of 'keep off the bombs and guns and the pax will fend for themselves quite nicely". No entry to the flight deck during flight. but the focus of this investigation is more akin to locking the barn door after the horse is out of the barn. (hindsight ALWAYS being 20-20) You gotta knife? better stick me with it fast or you'll EAT it. (capturing the hijacker is an option - kiilling THEM is another option - which ever is easier) "None" wrote in message k.net... WASHINGTON (AP)--The Federal Aviation Administration focused on the danger of explosives aboard planes rather than a suicide hijacking before the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks even though its own security officers warned terrorists might try to crash an airliner, a federal panel said Tuesday. The FAA's Office of Civil Aviation Security considered the risk of a suicide hijacking at least as early as March 1998, says the preliminary report by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States. The commission report acknowledges there was no specific intelligence indicating suicide hijackings would occur but says the FAA still had a responsibility to protect the flying public against such a threat. The commission wrapped up two days of hearings that focused on aviation and border security lapses. The panel, which has been investigating the Sept. 11 attacks for a year and has held seven public hearings, wants Congress to extend its May 27 deadline by at least two months, saying it needs more time to review all the material. At Tuesday's hearing, the commission provided documents showing the FAA was aware of the possibility of suicide hijackings but didn't pass the information along to airlines. In a presentation to airline and airport officials in early 2001, the FAA discounted the threat of a suicide hijacking because there was "no indication that any group is currently thinking in that direction." And when the agency issued a terrorism warning to air carriers in July 2001, it noted the risk of explosives inside luggage but did not mention suicide hijackings. At a commission hearing, panel member Timothy Roemer read from an FAA document published in the Federal Register on July 17, 2001, stating that terrorism could occur "anytime, anywhere" in the U.S. and cautioning that the risk "needs to be prevented and countered." "The dots are connected and they're large," said Roemer, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana. "Why didn't they result in a change in policy?" Cathal L. Flynn, former associate administrator of civil aviation security at the FAA, responded that the agency only had a generalized sense of the risk and that security efforts were hampered somewhat by poor communication with the FBI. "It isn't that we disregarded them. There were disconnects," he said. "How would you coerce a pilot to fly into a building that's got people in it?...How would you do that? The notion of a full-fledged al-Qaida member being a pilot ... did not occur to me." Executives from United Airlines(NASDAQ-OTCBB:UALAQ) and American Airlines told the commission they rely on the FAA and federal agencies to provide guidance on aviation security as well as counterterrorism efforts. They proposed a more integrated security plan to improve coordination among federal agencies. Other preliminary findings disclosed Tuesday by the commission: -Nine of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers had been stopped by the airlines for additional security screening. -Weaknesses in airport screening of carry-on baggage in the 20 years prior to 2001 were rampant and widely reported in popular literature, which the hijackers apparently read and used to their advantage. The 10-member, bipartisan commission was established by Congress to study the nation's preparedness before Sept. 11, 2001 and its response to the attacks, and to make recommendations for guarding against similar disasters. |
#2
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
I predict that the next generation of attacks will be an inside job - an
armed pilot who is an airline employee shooting his co-pilot and being protected by the new ultra secure cockpit doors. With all of the anti-terrorist hysteria, no one is looking at the worst case unanticipated consequence scenarios. We would probably be a lot better off with no weapons or locks on board any aircraft at all, and rely on the passengers to keep or retake control. No one will ever sit by and meekly permit a hijacking again after 9/11. Mike Schumann "DALing" daling43[delete]-at-hotmail.com wrote in message ... which illustrates the fallacy about what the "old" system assumed - not using the aircraft ITSELF as a weapon. Focusing on the "old rules" of "hijack" rather than the "new' (as in 'current') rules of hijack - what goes on the back of the aircraft is SECONDARY to prevention of the take-over of the aircraft controls itself and that pax will take whatever action they can to prevent the situation from manifesting itself. Contrary to what they will undoubtedly find, as was demonstrated by the Pennsylvania plane, once it became clear that the intent was to crash the plane somewhere, the PAX took action (exactly what the result of that action (as in speculation that the hijackers crashed in order to prevent capture) was will probably either never be known or alternsatively never be released). That action can be expected to be repeated as a FIRST rebuff to any attempt to commandeer an aircraft. Which is also why I support the position of 'keep off the bombs and guns and the pax will fend for themselves quite nicely". No entry to the flight deck during flight. but the focus of this investigation is more akin to locking the barn door after the horse is out of the barn. (hindsight ALWAYS being 20-20) You gotta knife? better stick me with it fast or you'll EAT it. (capturing the hijacker is an option - kiilling THEM is another option - which ever is easier) "None" wrote in message k.net... WASHINGTON (AP)--The Federal Aviation Administration focused on the danger of explosives aboard planes rather than a suicide hijacking before the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks even though its own security officers warned terrorists might try to crash an airliner, a federal panel said Tuesday. The FAA's Office of Civil Aviation Security considered the risk of a suicide hijacking at least as early as March 1998, says the preliminary report by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States. The commission report acknowledges there was no specific intelligence indicating suicide hijackings would occur but says the FAA still had a responsibility to protect the flying public against such a threat. The commission wrapped up two days of hearings that focused on aviation and border security lapses. The panel, which has been investigating the Sept. 11 attacks for a year and has held seven public hearings, wants Congress to extend its May 27 deadline by at least two months, saying it needs more time to review all the material. At Tuesday's hearing, the commission provided documents showing the FAA was aware of the possibility of suicide hijackings but didn't pass the information along to airlines. In a presentation to airline and airport officials in early 2001, the FAA discounted the threat of a suicide hijacking because there was "no indication that any group is currently thinking in that direction." And when the agency issued a terrorism warning to air carriers in July 2001, it noted the risk of explosives inside luggage but did not mention suicide hijackings. At a commission hearing, panel member Timothy Roemer read from an FAA document published in the Federal Register on July 17, 2001, stating that terrorism could occur "anytime, anywhere" in the U.S. and cautioning that the risk "needs to be prevented and countered." "The dots are connected and they're large," said Roemer, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana. "Why didn't they result in a change in policy?" Cathal L. Flynn, former associate administrator of civil aviation security at the FAA, responded that the agency only had a generalized sense of the risk and that security efforts were hampered somewhat by poor communication with the FBI. "It isn't that we disregarded them. There were disconnects," he said. "How would you coerce a pilot to fly into a building that's got people in it?...How would you do that? The notion of a full-fledged al-Qaida member being a pilot ... did not occur to me." Executives from United Airlines(NASDAQ-OTCBB:UALAQ) and American Airlines told the commission they rely on the FAA and federal agencies to provide guidance on aviation security as well as counterterrorism efforts. They proposed a more integrated security plan to improve coordination among federal agencies. Other preliminary findings disclosed Tuesday by the commission: -Nine of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers had been stopped by the airlines for additional security screening. -Weaknesses in airport screening of carry-on baggage in the 20 years prior to 2001 were rampant and widely reported in popular literature, which the hijackers apparently read and used to their advantage. The 10-member, bipartisan commission was established by Congress to study the nation's preparedness before Sept. 11, 2001 and its response to the attacks, and to make recommendations for guarding against similar disasters. |
#3
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
Mike Schumann wrote:
We would probably be a lot better off with no weapons or locks on board any aircraft at all, and rely on the passengers to keep or retake control. No one will ever sit by and meekly permit a hijacking again after 9/11. Something as simple as inserting the phrase "You may be called upon by the crew to help subdue or incapacitate individuals posing a threat to the safety and security of the plane" could have made all the difference in cancelling the plans of the hijackers, had such a phrase been implimented before 9-11. Immediately after 9-11 there is no doubt that the intent of such a phrase was clear in the minds of the flying public, and institutiing such an annoucement would have easily been superior to all the subsequent anti-terrorist mechanisms and proceedures put into place on planes and at airports since 9-11. Instead such a phrase remains absent, and in time confusion and uncertainty will creep back into the psycology of the average passenger when (or if) faced with another 9-11 type situation in the future. The potential of hijacking for suicidal purposes has clearly been a recognized for some time prior to 9-11. The suicidal plunge of Egypt Air flight 990 in 1999 should have been a clear warning of what was to come: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=25523 If the more recent crash of an Egypt Air plane a few weeks ago in the Red Sea was also suicide you can be sure it will never be revealed as such because the flight recorders are being analyzed by Egyptian authorities: http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...=1074160582297 "Egypt's Civil Aviation Minister Ahmed Mohamed Shafiq Zaki said Egypt had the technical means to analyse the data from the flight recorder, while personnel from U.S. plane manufacturer Boeing would act as observers in the investigation. Egypt has asserted its sovereign right to command the crash inquiry and has defended its air safety record against allegations that Switzerland banned Flash Airlines from its air space because of safety violations. Zaki said: "If it turns out there was a flaw in the plane, we will announce that straight away without any embarrassment." (Note that he did not say "indications of intentional pilot actions will be announced straight away without any embarrassment.") Is there anyone from Egypt that reads (or can post to) R.T.A? Are Egyptians allowed to have internet access? I'm curious to get the opinion from a real Egyption as to why the idea of a suicidal Egyption pilot is do dangerous to the stability of their society. |
#4
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
Fly Guy wrote:
If the more recent crash of an Egypt Air plane a few weeks ago in the Red Sea was also suicide you can be sure it will never be revealed as such because the flight recorders are being analyzed by Egyptian authorities: It was not an Egypt Air, it was Flash Air, a very small charter company. "Egypt's Civil Aviation Minister Ahmed Mohamed Shafiq Zaki said Egypt had the technical means to analyse the data from the flight recorder, while personnel from U.S. plane manufacturer Boeing would act as observers in the investigation. And lets not forget the French who are providing the hardware and logistical help for the investigation (including the submarines as well as FDR/CVR analysis. The wreck is between 600 and 800 metres deep. The FDR was recuperated on january 17th, the CVR on the 18th. (crash on 3rd) Latest news is that the FDR revealed some contradictory information in terms of direction of flight versus what FDR thought was happening. CVR revealed that crew were alert. It was also confirmed that there were no external influences (eg: no missiles). French media are still tracking closely this event. |
#5
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
Egypt Air was a different case - the deranged pilot wanted to snuff
hoimself - the fact that there were others on the aircraft didn't enter the equation, This was a different scenario - use the aircraft as a weapon against a target. "Fly Guy" wrote in message ... Mike Schumann wrote: We would probably be a lot better off with no weapons or locks on board any aircraft at all, and rely on the passengers to keep or retake control. No one will ever sit by and meekly permit a hijacking again after 9/11. Something as simple as inserting the phrase "You may be called upon by the crew to help subdue or incapacitate individuals posing a threat to the safety and security of the plane" could have made all the difference in cancelling the plans of the hijackers, had such a phrase been implimented before 9-11. Immediately after 9-11 there is no doubt that the intent of such a phrase was clear in the minds of the flying public, and institutiing such an annoucement would have easily been superior to all the subsequent anti-terrorist mechanisms and proceedures put into place on planes and at airports since 9-11. Instead such a phrase remains absent, and in time confusion and uncertainty will creep back into the psycology of the average passenger when (or if) faced with another 9-11 type situation in the future. The potential of hijacking for suicidal purposes has clearly been a recognized for some time prior to 9-11. The suicidal plunge of Egypt Air flight 990 in 1999 should have been a clear warning of what was to come: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=25523 If the more recent crash of an Egypt Air plane a few weeks ago in the Red Sea was also suicide you can be sure it will never be revealed as such because the flight recorders are being analyzed by Egyptian authorities: http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...eed/WireFeed&c =WireFeed&cid=1074160582297 "Egypt's Civil Aviation Minister Ahmed Mohamed Shafiq Zaki said Egypt had the technical means to analyse the data from the flight recorder, while personnel from U.S. plane manufacturer Boeing would act as observers in the investigation. Egypt has asserted its sovereign right to command the crash inquiry and has defended its air safety record against allegations that Switzerland banned Flash Airlines from its air space because of safety violations. Zaki said: "If it turns out there was a flaw in the plane, we will announce that straight away without any embarrassment." (Note that he did not say "indications of intentional pilot actions will be announced straight away without any embarrassment.") Is there anyone from Egypt that reads (or can post to) R.T.A? Are Egyptians allowed to have internet access? I'm curious to get the opinion from a real Egyption as to why the idea of a suicidal Egyption pilot is do dangerous to the stability of their society. |
#6
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
DALing wrote:
Egypt Air was a different case - the deranged pilot wanted to snuff himself I suppose he told you this personally. Strange (and complicated) way to commit suicide. Typically, someone planning suicide does not formulate a plan where there is opportunity to be stopped by others (and very rarely are others injured or killed in the attempt - unless suicide is not the main objective). |
#7
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FAA Downplayed Chance Of Suicide Hijacking -Panel
from the CVR tapes and the flight data recorders what other conclusion is
possible? Whether it was a calculated act or not is the question (or "merely" an act of opportunity) "Fly Guy" wrote in message ... DALing wrote: Egypt Air was a different case - the deranged pilot wanted to snuff himself I suppose he told you this personally. Strange (and complicated) way to commit suicide. Typically, someone planning suicide does not formulate a plan where there is opportunity to be stopped by others (and very rarely are others injured or killed in the attempt - unless suicide is not the main objective). |
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