Air NZ crew heads home alone after LA suicide

"Raffi Balmanoukian" a
wrote in message
news:BC696E24.21516%walkabout@TAKEOUTTHETRASHTOREP LY.ns.sympatico.ca...
in article , Jim Davis
Sr.
at wrote on 3/1/04 10:23 PM:

What I'm trying to say is that the "Estate", if any, that this guy has
left
will probably not be sufficient for his surviving family to live on for
the
rest of their lives. If the estate is sued, the innocent survivors will
be
the ones to suffer. It's not their fault that he decided to take a
header
off the bridge or building.




Agreed, but by the same token, it's not the airline or the pax's fault
either. He could have killed himself in a way that did not impact them.
If
doing so in a way that impacts hundreds of others affects any surviving
family (and you're assuming there is one).....I feel for them but I can't
quite reach. Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves
any
resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.

Probably just wanted to leave on impression, make a splash, paint the town
red,
go out with a bang, and other insensitive remarks.
6 billion people, 100 billion reasons every day, their call,
pity about the bystanders.
If we distinguish only how they self-extinguish, and that only for our
convenience, how can we then expect they care to make it convenient for us?

There will be no resources, fairly easy to prove no responsibility due
to mental state, also likely no insurance for same reason. Then there
are things like disposal and cleanup costs. Sanitation gets high priority.

1.5% of deaths are suicides. Probablity of a suicide increased greatly
amonst those immediately associated. Suicides affect people far more
than accidents or natural causes.
Emergency services see this all the time but the differences is in
preparation and expectation. A rock that treated 5 heart-attacks and
3 car crashes today may fold when they find a pet budgie dead at home,
then have chicken for tea.

We don't know what other circumstances may have prompted the
management decision. Their call.
e.g. the odds of a similar recent event with an associate are not
insignificant

budgie wrote:

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:27:19 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
a wrote:


in article , budgie at
wrote on 3/1/04 8:44 PM:


We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we get to
knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had a fight
with a spouse or the dog died or.....

I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.

Does finding a horse's head in my bed count?


Nope, that's just a personal affront from an individual.

Trust me, the sight of a jumper going past - and of the splatter mess fifteen
floors below - is not easily forgotten. And that was thirty-odd years back.

15 years ago, while on a temp assignment in LA while working at IBM in
Austin. during the development of AIX/PS2 at Locus Software in the
Herbel Life building, I was staying at the Marriott LAX. One night a
bunch of us were coming back from dinner. In front of the hotel was a
body draped in a sheet. Apparently, someone jumped from the 14th floor,
presumably because there was no 13th floor.

"nobody" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:

For the crew, wouldn't it have been better to have *some* passengers which
would have helped take their mind off the trauma ? For instance, take 50%
of
the scheduled pax, and add a psychiatrist to talk to crew between the
service
and during crew rest periods.

Not at all. By having no passengers on-board it would have allowed the crew
to at least get some rest knowing that they could deal with matters in
privacy - they would have taken seats in First and Business Class, most
would have slept as much as possible. Having passengers on board - even a
few - would have meant that they couldn't just spread out and "go tropo" if
required.

Good on Air NZ in this instance. It's a far cry from how this would have
been handled even a few years ago.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

"Raffi Balmanoukian" a
wrote in message
news:BC681C7D.2147B%walkabout@TAKEOUTTHETRASHTOREP LY.ns.sympatico.ca...
in article , James Robinson at
wrote on 2/29/04 10:34 PM:

I bet the hold was filled with cargo. That revenue would offset some, if
not all, of the cost.

not on that little notice.

Absolutely. There is always plenty of cargo going on these flights. There
would be standby items that would be put on depending on how much fuel was
required. It probably allowed them to clear some of the backlog.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

"Alan" wrote in message
...

Yeah, I can see it in the training manual now:

"Procedures to be Followed When a Human Body Falls from the Sky onto
Cabin Crew Transport.

1. Remove body.
2. Clean windscreen thoroughly before proceeding.
3 ...."

4. Check appearance.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

Terry Russell wrote:

"Raffi Balmanoukian" a
wrote in message
news:BC696E24.21516%walkabout@TAKEOUTTHETRASHTORE PLY.ns.sympatico.ca...


in article , Jim Davis


Sr.


at wrote on 3/1/04 10:23 PM:



What I'm trying to say is that the "Estate", if any, that this guy has


left


will probably not be sufficient for his surviving family to live on for


the


rest of their lives. If the estate is sued, the innocent survivors will


be


the ones to suffer. It's not their fault that he decided to take a


header


off the bridge or building.




Agreed, but by the same token, it's not the airline or the pax's fault
either. He could have killed himself in a way that did not impact them.


If


doing so in a way that impacts hundreds of others affects any surviving
family (and you're assuming there is one).....I feel for them but I can't
quite reach. Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves


any


resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.



Probably just wanted to leave on impression, make a splash, paint the town
red,
go out with a bang, and other insensitive remarks.
6 billion people, 100 billion reasons every day, their call,
pity about the bystanders.
If we distinguish only how they self-extinguish, and that only for our
convenience, how can we then expect they care to make it convenient for us?

There will be no resources, fairly easy to prove no responsibility due
to mental state, also likely no insurance for same reason. Then there
are things like disposal and cleanup costs. Sanitation gets high priority.

1.5% of deaths are suicides. Probablity of a suicide increased greatly
amonst those immediately associated. Suicides affect people far more
than accidents or natural causes.
Emergency services see this all the time but the differences is in
preparation and expectation. A rock that treated 5 heart-attacks and
3 car crashes today may fold when they find a pet budgie dead at home,
then have chicken for tea.

We don't know what other circumstances may have prompted the
management decision. Their call.
e.g. the odds of a similar recent event with an associate are not
insignificant




Just how many people jump of Motorway Bridges in LA

Try finding the figures

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:50:43 GMT, (Miguel Cruz) wrote:

Max Burke wrote:
Some of the crew were prepared to work the flight, but it was Air NZ
management that sent them all home on an empty plane... Sending the
aircraft back to NZ empty would have cost Air NZ a lot more that just the
crew's wages they paid out...

Here's what I don't understand - wouldn't it have been cheaper to pay for a
parking spot for 14 hours and fly a new crew out? The traumatized crew could
head home on Qantas.

It is complex, but if they had to fly a crew in, the delay would
probably have been 24 hours or more, meanwhile, you do have the
aircraft slated to go somewhere else from Auckland. In terms of
revenue, it may be better to send the aircraft home empty and just pay
for one planeload of displaced passengers instead of two.

Basicallly while deadhead don't count as time on duty, they don't
count as time off duty either, so if the dead head is very long, you
run into rest time issues. I doubt it would have been legal for a crew
to spend 14 hours dead heading in, and then fly back out on a 12 hour
mission.

mtravelkay wrote:

budgie wrote:

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:27:19 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
a wrote:


in article , budgie at
wrote on 3/1/04 8:44 PM:


We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we
get to
knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had
a fight
with a spouse or the dog died or.....


I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.


Does finding a horse's head in my bed count?



Nope, that's just a personal affront from an individual.

Trust me, the sight of a jumper going past - and of the splatter mess
fifteen
floors below - is not easily forgotten. And that was thirty-odd
years back.


15 years ago, while on a temp assignment in LA while working at IBM in
Austin. during the development of AIX/PS2 at Locus Software in the
Herbel Life building, I was staying at the Marriott LAX. One night a
bunch of us were coming back from dinner. In front of the hotel was a
body draped in a sheet. Apparently, someone jumped from the 14th
floor, presumably because there was no 13th floor.

While I can not point to figures!
LA is suicde heaven for motorway bridge jumpers.

But what happened to the good old Kiwi attitude that dealt with these
sort of things

"Sean" wrote in message
news:jpm740po89mrgvhs290l31ujtonkr7fet9@newsgroups ...
Raffi Balmanoukian a
wrote:

I, for one, would have been completely ticked. Sure, it sounds
insensitive,
but crap happens. Do they cancel a flight if the pilot's dog dies? No?
I
would think that would affect the pilot a lot more than some stranger
while
you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It was imperative that the sheep shaggers be flown home immediately to
be with their fluffy white sheep. It has been demonstrated in studies
that they recover faster whilst in the company of their romantic
partners.

Plonk!

/pix

Mr Scebe wrote:

"Alan" wrote in message
.. .



Yeah, I can see it in the training manual now:

"Procedures to be Followed When a Human Body Falls from the Sky onto
Cabin Crew Transport.

1. Remove body.
2. Clean windscreen thoroughly before proceeding.
3 ...."



4. Check appearance.



And do not alarm passangers or they will demand free stuff