American Airlines' Preaching Pilot

American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers use the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith, Wagner said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just returned to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

"rom" wrote in message
. ..
American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the
non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based
airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers use
the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith, Wagner
said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the
flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the
company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just returned
to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

Wait a minute ... perhaps the intent was to allow rational, non christians
(and atheists) to talk the christians OUT of their dubious religious
beliefs.

"ZenIsWhen" wrote in message
...

"rom" wrote in message
. ..
American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York
asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the
non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based
airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on
Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers
use
the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith,
Wagner
said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the
flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the
company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just
returned
to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner
said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

Wait a minute ... perhaps the intent was to allow rational, non christians
(and atheists) to talk the christians OUT of their dubious religious
beliefs.

I was hoping that too until I read: "...the pilot had just returned to work
from
a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica."

Maybe he works undercover for MI-5?

In article 1meVb.114317$U%5.592505@attbi_s03,
"Geoff" wrote:

"ZenIsWhen" wrote in message
...

"rom" wrote in message
. ..
American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York
asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the
non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based
airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on
Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers
use
the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith,
Wagner
said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the
flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the
company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just
returned
to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner
said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

Wait a minute ... perhaps the intent was to allow rational, non christians
(and atheists) to talk the christians OUT of their dubious religious
beliefs.

I was hoping that too until I read: "...the pilot had just returned to work
from
a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica."

Maybe he works undercover for MI-5?

Probably a Mormon or other Christian denomination that does charitable
work in order to bribe unfortunates into believing in his fantasy.

"ZenIsWhen" wrote in message ...
"rom" wrote in message
. ..
American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the
non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based
airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers use
the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith, Wagner
said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the
flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the
company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just returned
to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

Wait a minute ... perhaps the intent was to allow rational, non christians
(and atheists) to talk the christians OUT of their dubious religious
beliefs.

Atheists at least wouldn't pull such a stunt. It is only pushy
Christians who do this sort of crap. Maybe Muslums do it too, but who
else? Atheists are content to live and let live. As long as xians
don't start preaching first that is.

jwk

(jwk) wrote in message . com...

Atheists at least wouldn't pull such a stunt. It is only pushy
Christians who do this sort of crap. Maybe Muslums do it too, but who
else? Atheists are content to live and let live. As long as xians
don't start preaching first that is.

Need I remind you that Google has a search feature? There's no
shortage of posts by atheists attacking people's belief in God. It's
not just done against Christians, and is OFTEN initiated by atheists.

Yes, some religions proselytize, but others don't. Some religions
believe that everybody else is going to hell, and others don't. But
that does not stop atheists from launching into diatribes and vitriol
REGARDLESS of the religious beliefs of the person being attacked.

When somebody cross-posts a message to many groups, and an atheist
attacks not only the beliefs of the original poster, but also the
beliefs of the people in all the other groups, then it's the atheist
who is doing exactly what you are denying. When a member of of one of
the other groups defends himself against attacks he did not start,
members of alt.atheism have no qualms about further attacks. Posters
from alt.atheism do not differentiate between somebody who tells you
what to believe and somebody who merely says that he believes in God
and is defending himself against attacks by others.

Next time you see an atheistic diatribe, take a look at what groups it
gets posted to. For each group, ask yourself why the post is there.
If it's a religious group, find out some basic information about its
beliefs. Does it proselytize, or do its leaders actively discourage
conversion to assure that only the sincere convert? Do they preach to
you or not? Do they believe that you must be one of them or do they
believe that God is just fine with the righteous people of any nation
as long as they live a moral (not in the strictly sexual sense) life?
Or does it bother you so much that a religion's basic moral code has a
deity involved that you must attack its members even if they are
perfectly fine with your beliefs? I can't speak for you on this one,
but other atheists have spoken for themselves, and it was loud and
clear.

When it comes to uglyness, I've seen enough of it from all sides, and
there's no shortage at all coming from atheists. If you visit any of
the websites for atheism, you would learn that it's NOT a religion and
its members do NOT NECESSARILY hold the same views. So don't tell me
or anybody else how atheists behave. Perhaps most behave just fine,
but you would not know that from Usenet. This hypocracy is not lost by
anybody who reads alt.atheism and sees the total lack of restraint and
notices that it goes entirely unchecked by the other group members. I
never see an atheist in alt.atheism who stands up to another atheist
for attacking somebody who did not impose his views on anybody in the
first place.

In article ,
(Wai Doan Hsu) wrote:

I never see an atheist in alt.atheism who stands up to another atheist
for attacking somebody who did not impose his views on anybody in the
first place.

I have in the past. I've criticized several atheists for expressing the
very intolerance they claim to be fighting against.

And I've been criticized myself for being an atheist who doesn't have an
automatic knee jerk negative reaction to anything and everything
religious.

I've noticed there seems to be a definite atheist "party line" that
we're all expected to tow. Kinda like African-Americans who vote
Republican. If they don't vote the way they are "expected" to-- they way
they are told to by the "leaders" of the black community-- other blacks
react negatively toward them.

And so upon Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:53:47 -0800 didst Wai Doan Hsu speak
thusly:

So don't tell me
or anybody else how atheists behave. Perhaps most behave just fine,
but you would not know that from Usenet.

Yeah... but it's *Usenet.

I haven't seen much in the way of "restraint" in *any Usenet newsgroup.
About much of *anything.

I'm not sure there's much of a comparison between what that pilot did and
what happens on Usenet...

--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."

(Wai Doan Hsu) wrote in message . com...
(jwk) wrote in message . com...

Atheists at least wouldn't pull such a stunt. It is only pushy
Christians who do this sort of crap. Maybe Muslums do it too, but who
else? Atheists are content to live and let live. As long as xians
don't start preaching first that is.

Need I remind you that Google has a search feature? There's no
shortage of posts by atheists attacking people's belief in God. It's
not just done against Christians, and is OFTEN initiated by atheists.

Yes, some religions proselytize, but others don't. Some religions
believe that everybody else is going to hell, and others don't. But
that does not stop atheists from launching into diatribes and vitriol
REGARDLESS of the religious beliefs of the person being attacked.

When somebody cross-posts a message to many groups, and an atheist
attacks not only the beliefs of the original poster, but also the
beliefs of the people in all the other groups, then it's the atheist
who is doing exactly what you are denying. When a member of of one of
the other groups defends himself against attacks he did not start,
members of alt.atheism have no qualms about further attacks. Posters
from alt.atheism do not differentiate between somebody who tells you
what to believe and somebody who merely says that he believes in God
and is defending himself against attacks by others.

Next time you see an atheistic diatribe, take a look at what groups it
gets posted to. For each group, ask yourself why the post is there.
If it's a religious group, find out some basic information about its
beliefs. Does it proselytize, or do its leaders actively discourage
conversion to assure that only the sincere convert? Do they preach to
you or not? Do they believe that you must be one of them or do they
believe that God is just fine with the righteous people of any nation
as long as they live a moral (not in the strictly sexual sense) life?
Or does it bother you so much that a religion's basic moral code has a
deity involved that you must attack its members even if they are
perfectly fine with your beliefs? I can't speak for you on this one,
but other atheists have spoken for themselves, and it was loud and
clear.

When it comes to uglyness, I've seen enough of it from all sides, and
there's no shortage at all coming from atheists. If you visit any of
the websites for atheism, you would learn that it's NOT a religion and
its members do NOT NECESSARILY hold the same views. So don't tell me
or anybody else how atheists behave. Perhaps most behave just fine,
but you would not know that from Usenet. This hypocracy is not lost by
anybody who reads alt.atheism and sees the total lack of restraint and
notices that it goes entirely unchecked by the other group members. I
never see an atheist in alt.atheism who stands up to another atheist
for attacking somebody who did not impose his views on anybody in the
first place.

When I said "pull such a stunt" I meant proselytizing people trapped
in a plane, like that pilot did. Usnet is a special case. If you can
provide one instance where an atheist stood up in a moving bus and
tried to "save" everyone, or went to someone's doorstep uninvited, or
announced over an airplanes intercomm that any non-Christians were
crazy, I'll eat my hat.

As for usent - if you are an xain and you come into alt.atheism
looking for trouble, you'll find it. I don't see why you would expect
otherwise. And there is a difference between cross-posting a flame
and responding to a cross-posted flame. If a fundy cross-posts to
alt.atheism and a bunch of other groups, you have to leave the other
groups in your reply to make sure it gets through. Blame the
originator, not us. Not that I doubt that atheists ever start the
cross-posting, but I believe it is rare. Besides, no one forces you
to read a usenet post. Personally I ignore almost all threads with
more than 2 or 3 groups included. How do you escape a deranged
Christian fundy pilot once the plane door is shut? That is a big
difference.

jwk

(jwk) wrote in message . com...
(Wai Doan Hsu) wrote in message . com...
(jwk) wrote in message . com...

Atheists at least wouldn't pull such a stunt. It is only pushy
Christians who do this sort of crap. Maybe Muslums do it too, but who
else? Atheists are content to live and let live. As long as xians
don't start preaching first that is.

Need I remind you that Google has a search feature? There's no
shortage of posts by atheists attacking people's belief in God. It's
not just done against Christians, and is OFTEN initiated by atheists.

Yes, some religions proselytize, but others don't. Some religions
believe that everybody else is going to hell, and others don't. But
that does not stop atheists from launching into diatribes and vitriol
REGARDLESS of the religious beliefs of the person being attacked.

When somebody cross-posts a message to many groups, and an atheist
attacks not only the beliefs of the original poster, but also the
beliefs of the people in all the other groups, then it's the atheist
who is doing exactly what you are denying. When a member of of one of

the other groups defends himself against attacks he did not start,
members of alt.atheism have no qualms about further attacks. Posters
from alt.atheism do not differentiate between somebody who tells you
what to believe and somebody who merely says that he believes in God
and is defending himself against attacks by others.

Next time you see an atheistic diatribe, take a look at what groups it
gets posted to. For each group, ask yourself why the post is there.
If it's a religious group, find out some basic information about its
beliefs. Does it proselytize, or do its leaders actively discourage
conversion to assure that only the sincere convert? Do they preach to
you or not? Do they believe that you must be one of them or do they
believe that God is just fine with the righteous people of any nation
as long as they live a moral (not in the strictly sexual sense) life?
Or does it bother you so much that a religion's basic moral code has a
deity involved that you must attack its members even if they are
perfectly fine with your beliefs? I can't speak for you on this one,
but other atheists have spoken for themselves, and it was loud and
clear.

When it comes to uglyness, I've seen enough of it from all sides, and
there's no shortage at all coming from atheists. If you visit any of
the websites for atheism, you would learn that it's NOT a religion and
its members do NOT NECESSARILY hold the same views. So don't tell me
or anybody else how atheists behave. Perhaps most behave just fine,
but you would not know that from Usenet. This hypocracy is not lost by
anybody who reads alt.atheism and sees the total lack of restraint and
notices that it goes entirely unchecked by the other group members. I
never see an atheist in alt.atheism who stands up to another atheist
for attacking somebody who did not impose his views on anybody in the
first place.

When I said "pull such a stunt" I meant proselytizing people trapped
in a plane, like that pilot did. Usnet is a special case. If you can
provide one instance where an atheist stood up in a moving bus and
tried to "save" everyone, or went to someone's doorstep uninvited, or
announced over an airplanes intercomm that any non-Christians were
crazy, I'll eat my hat.


Point taken.


As for usent - if you are an xain and you come into alt.atheism
looking for trouble, you'll find it.

But what if I'm not?

I don't see why you would expect
otherwise. And there is a difference between cross-posting a flame
and responding to a cross-posted flame.

If the originator posts something, whether I agree with it or not, but
it's somebody in alt.atheism who replies in a way that not only
attacks the OP, but attacks ME and attacks people in other groups who
obviously (to anybody who understands the other religions) did not
start the attack, then I can't see the merit in what you are saying.
It's still the poster in alt.atheism who is starting the attack
against me.


If a fundy cross-posts to
alt.atheism and a bunch of other groups, you have to leave the other
groups in your reply to make sure it gets through. Blame the
originator, not us.

If you truly believe that the post was from a Christian fundamentalist
addressed to athiests, then direct the responses to groups that deal
with those subjects. If the OP somehow misses the response, the worst
you have done is avert a flame war. But you would have still managed
to reach the relevant audience. The argument that you have to leave
the other groups in is a poor one. Even if the OP is hanging out in
alt.basketweaving, it would be clear who his audience is. If you
leave alt.basketweaving out of the reply, you might have lost one
relevant person, but you would have also reached those who considered
the post relevant and left out the one who would prolong the flaming.


Not that I doubt that atheists ever start the
cross-posting, but I believe it is rare. Besides, no one forces you
to read a usenet post.

That's irrelevant. Nobody forces you to open the door when somebody
comes to your house to "save" you. That doesn't mean that I have to
like or condone the practice. Nobody forces atheists to come to a
group to attack people either. There are plenty of other groups such
as soc.atheism that discuss issues related to atheism without getting
into any of this. This has nothing to do with force. If a person sees
a post in a group that he frequents, and it appears to be about a
relevant subject, it's absurd to say that he or she should not have
read it and it's his fault for doing so. I don't expect to be
attacked in a group I read by somebody from another group when it has
nothing to do with what anybody in my group posted.

However, it would still seem better for an atheist to just ignore it
in the first place rather than attack every possible reader, even
though most of them had nothing to do with the OP. Do you honestly
think that anything an atheist ever posted in one of these flame
threads ever got a fundamentalist Christian to say, "Oh. I never
thought of that! I guess you are right! I'll go home now?" That
does not happen. Likewise, there's no more chance that they will get
you to accept their brand of religion.

So if the only thing that gets accomplished is to antagonize other
Christians who are not pushing this agenda, and members of other
religions who couldn't care less what your beliefs are, and might even
be atheists themselves, then what point is being served? Live and let
live?

Personally I ignore almost all threads with
more than 2 or 3 groups included.

Anecdotal experience tells me otherwise, but I'll take your word for
it.


How do you escape a deranged
Christian fundy pilot once the plane door is shut? That is a big
difference.


You make it clear to the airline that this issue is not going to die,
and that their actions were not enough. You don't use them until they
get the message. If you were a passenger, you take stronger action.
Airlines have given people vouchers for much smaller issues. There's
no reason to put up with this.