abolishing tipping?

hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

Nobody tips the lawyer, the graphic designer, the teacher, the
librarian, the grocery store check out clerk, the admin assistant, the
traffic cop, the Walgreens checkout clerk or a million other jobs. Why
this selective situation where we subsidize the paycheck of certain
job categories.

Yes prices will rise. But we are paying it anyway.

please let me know what you think.

thanks
tina

On 20 Oct 2003 16:48:24 -0700, (tina lekas
miller) wrote:

hello out there,
I am of the opinion that tipping practices in the US, at least my part
of the US have gone overboard. what do you think of making employers
jack up their employees pay (and the cost of their services) by
whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

They will quickly lose business because their menu prices will be
significantly higher. It also removes my ability to let the
waiter know he's done a poor job by leaving a 5-cent tip.

Yes prices will rise. But we are paying it anyway.

Maybe you're tipping too much.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen wrote in message . ..
(tina lekas miller) wrote:
what do you think of making employers jack up their employees pay (and the
cost of their services) by whatever percentage say 15% and forbid tipping.

They will quickly lose business because their menu prices will be
significantly higher. It also removes my ability to let the
waiter know he's done a poor job by leaving a 5-cent tip.

In another thread, I somewhat answered the question posed. I've had
almost two hours to think about it and, based on what I said in the
other thread, have concluded that the increase in prices wouldn't be
significant. Here's the $15 meal to which I refer'd ($13.90+$1.10 tax
at 8%):

Soup: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Salad: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Entrée: $7.00 an increase from $6.75
Dessert: $1.75 an increase from $1.50
Coffee: $1.15 an increase from $0.95

New amount: $13.90; old amount: $12.70, a net increase of $1.28. Big
deal!

That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

In San Francisco, you can get a rather nice meal for $15. This evening
in North Beach, I paid only $12 including a tip greater than 20% for a
meal that was delicious, nutritious, and more than filling.
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Icono Clast wrote:

In another thread, I somewhat answered the question posed. I've had
almost two hours to think about it and, based on what I said in the
other thread, have concluded that the increase in prices wouldn't be
significant.

That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

Something doesn't add up. For one thing, you're assuming the waiter
gets it all. I think most places share the tips with other workers, all
of whom would get an increase. In any case, you can't have the employer
not earning less, the waiter earning more, yet the diner pays only an 8%
premium instead of 15%.

Lynn Guinni wrote:
That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

Something doesn't add up.

That's vague to excess. What is the "something that doesn't add up"?

For one thing, you're assuming the waiter gets it all.

No, I err'd. I shouldn't have mentioned tips at all as they're not
relevant to what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion. My fault.

I think most places share the tips with other workers, all of whom would
get an increase. In any case, you can't have the employer not earning
less, the waiter earning more, yet the diner pays only an 8% premium
instead of 15%.

In the example I gave, the employer would not have diminished
earnings. Most restaurateurs make a living, little more, and cannot
afford to have a lesser margin. The example I gave showed how the
employer would break even with the 300% wage increase. The employer's
other expenses, in my example, would not change. The reason for an
increase of $1.20 per diner rather than $1 is for the employer's
increased payroll expenses such as greater Social Security payments,
etc.
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Icono Clast wrote:

No, I err'd. I shouldn't have mentioned tips at all as they're not
relevant to what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion. My fault.

Well then I'm completely lost. This thread is about tipping. It
appeared to me that you were proposing something whereby the waitstaff
would get paid more as a wage, instead of from tips.

If you are instead talking simply about significantly hiking the minimum
wage for waitstaff and how delighted we'll all be to pay more AND keep
tipping just as generously, well, take it up with the restaurant
associations. They've made lots of submissions on this issue, which I
found very easily with Google. No point rehashing it.

Or perhaps I still don't understand your point.

"Icono Clast" wrote in message
om...
Hatunen wrote in message
. ..
(tina lekas miller) wrote:
what do you think of making employers jack up their employees pay (and
the
cost of their services) by whatever percentage say 15% and forbid
tipping.

They will quickly lose business because their menu prices will be
significantly higher. It also removes my ability to let the
waiter know he's done a poor job by leaving a 5-cent tip.

In another thread, I somewhat answered the question posed. I've had
almost two hours to think about it and, based on what I said in the
other thread, have concluded that the increase in prices wouldn't be
significant. Here's the $15 meal to which I refer'd ($13.90+$1.10 tax
at 8%):

Soup: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Salad: $2.00 an increase from $1.75
Entrée: $7.00 an increase from $6.75
Dessert: $1.75 an increase from $1.50
Coffee: $1.15 an increase from $0.95

New amount: $13.90; old amount: $12.70, a net increase of $1.28. Big
deal!

That's about a nine percent increase for a meal but, if you read the
other post, it would allow for a wage increase from $2 to $8. Who
among us would protest? Who among us couldn't afford it? Who among us
would even notice?

In San Francisco, you can get a rather nice meal for $15. This evening
in North Beach, I paid only $12 including a tip greater than 20% for a
meal that was delicious, nutritious, and more than filling.

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.


__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:51 -0700, "Peter L"
wrote:

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.

To the empoyer as well as the employee; the employer will be
obligated to pay half the social security tax and, I beleive,
more state unemployment tax.

Waiters are, of course, in violation of tax law if they do not
report the entirety of their tips on their tax returns.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Hatunen" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:41:51 -0700, "Peter L"
wrote:

On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if
that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.

To the empoyer as well as the employee; the employer will be
obligated to pay half the social security tax and, I beleive,
more state unemployment tax.

Waiters are, of course, in violation of tax law if they do not
report the entirety of their tips on their tax returns.

It's not news to anyone, but cheating, er, I mean fudging the tax return, is
the most popular national pass time.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

"Peter L" wrote
On the other hand, the IRS does not tax the full 15% of tips, they assume
something less than 15%. So anything over what the IRS thinks is the
average tip rate (IIRC 8%? Or higher?) is essentially tax free. But if that
is now paid in wages it's all taxable.

As I said in a previous post, I should not have mentioned tips. Sorry.

What would cause anyone to tip less to an employee because of a
semi-decent wage? Most of us don't think of our tips as paying the
employee's wage on behalf of the employer but as a gratuity without
regard for what it actually is.
__________________________________________________ ___________
A San Franciscan in 47.335 mile² San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net