Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On 6 Sep 2006 05:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:18:34 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
[snip]
Civilisation and human remains are not one and the same! It's about
complex societal structures that were formed, and the infrastructure
to support them.

Mostly due to the rise of agriculture.

IIRC, "sedation" or the building of near permanent housing
and the collection of them into communities predates agriculture.
We apparently were hunter gatherers for some time after we
started to take up permanent residence and form communities.
How far that process must progress before one considers it
"civilization" is left to a more precise definition. T

Civilizaton begins when there is enough food production that some
people can have other jobs than growing or hunting food.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 05:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:18:34 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
[snip]
Civilisation and human remains are not one and the same! It's about
complex societal structures that were formed, and the infrastructure
to support them.

Mostly due to the rise of agriculture.

IIRC, "sedation" or the building of near permanent housing
and the collection of them into communities predates agriculture.
We apparently were hunter gatherers for some time after we
started to take up permanent residence and form communities.
How far that process must progress before one considers it
"civilization" is left to a more precise definition. T

Civilizaton begins when there is enough food production that some
people can have other jobs than growing or hunting food.

And by such a definition, civilization would precede agriculture.
Not all in hunter gatherer groups hunted and gathered. Furthermore,
the hunter gatherers had other "jobs" as well.

On 6 Sep 2006 08:51:04 -0700, "
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 05:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:18:34 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
[snip]
Civilisation and human remains are not one and the same! It's about
complex societal structures that were formed, and the infrastructure
to support them.

Mostly due to the rise of agriculture.

IIRC, "sedation" or the building of near permanent housing
and the collection of them into communities predates agriculture.
We apparently were hunter gatherers for some time after we
started to take up permanent residence and form communities.
How far that process must progress before one considers it
"civilization" is left to a more precise definition. T

Civilizaton begins when there is enough food production that some
people can have other jobs than growing or hunting food.

And by such a definition, civilization would precede agriculture.
Not all in hunter gatherer groups hunted and gathered. Furthermore,
the hunter gatherers had other "jobs" as well.

Like waht ohte jobs? Besides making some pottery or baskets.

I gather you are either perversely trying to avoid the accepted
argument that only agriculture supplied enough food to support a
class of people who did not produce food resulting in
civilization, including a central government that could take on
public works or you are simply ignorant of the generally accepted
consensus.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:31:20 -0700, Hatunen wrote:

On 6 Sep 2006 08:51:04 -0700, "
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 05:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:18:34 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
[snip]
Civilisation and human remains are not one and the same! It's about
complex societal structures that were formed, and the infrastructure
to support them.

Mostly due to the rise of agriculture.

IIRC, "sedation" or the building of near permanent housing
and the collection of them into communities predates agriculture.
We apparently were hunter gatherers for some time after we
started to take up permanent residence and form communities.
How far that process must progress before one considers it
"civilization" is left to a more precise definition. T

Civilizaton begins when there is enough food production that some
people can have other jobs than growing or hunting food.

And by such a definition, civilization would precede agriculture.
Not all in hunter gatherer groups hunted and gathered. Furthermore,
the hunter gatherers had other "jobs" as well.

Like waht ohte jobs? Besides making some pottery or baskets.

I gather you are either perversely trying to avoid the accepted
argument that only agriculture supplied enough food to support a
class of people who did not produce food resulting in
civilization, including a central government that could take on
public works or you are simply ignorant of the generally accepted
consensus.

Sorry Dave, but that remarkably long sentence is not an accepted
argument in any circles!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Hatunen wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 08:51:04 -0700, "
wrote:


Hatunen wrote:
On 6 Sep 2006 05:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:18:34 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
[snip]
Civilisation and human remains are not one and the same! It's about
complex societal structures that were formed, and the infrastructure
to support them.

Mostly due to the rise of agriculture.

IIRC, "sedation" or the building of near permanent housing
and the collection of them into communities predates agriculture.
We apparently were hunter gatherers for some time after we
started to take up permanent residence and form communities.
How far that process must progress before one considers it
"civilization" is left to a more precise definition. T

Civilizaton begins when there is enough food production that some
people can have other jobs than growing or hunting food.

And by such a definition, civilization would precede agriculture.
Not all in hunter gatherer groups hunted and gathered. Furthermore,
the hunter gatherers had other "jobs" as well.

Like waht ohte jobs? Besides making some pottery or baskets.

Baskets, bricks, axes, knives, threshing, shaman. They apparently
hunted, gathered, and stored which allowed them to pursue other
activities as well.

I gather you are either perversely trying to avoid the accepted
argument that only agriculture supplied enough food to support a
class of people who did not produce food resulting in
civilization, including a central government that could take on
public works or you are simply ignorant of the generally accepted
consensus.

Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that
goes along with it) predates "organized" agriculture and correlates
more with a stage of hunter gathering in which relatively "naturally"
growing stocks of grains, grasses, and other products which would
become "domesticated" (including animals) were "worked" and
stored. The plowing and planting as well as animal domestication
apparently post dated this phase. "formal" agriculture apparently
was an outgrowth of sedation not the other way around.

Now you mentioned "central government". By any reasonable
definition of that (other than just a tribal elder kinda arrangement)
I believe waits until after the onset of formal agriculture. I'd have
to review the literature to be sure.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, wrote:

Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that goes
along with it)

Do you really use the word "sedation" in this context to indicate the
action of settling down ? I may be biased by the fact we in Italian
would use the word "insediamento" which would indicate both the action
of settling down, and a settlement as a place.

In my language the word "sedazione" means only the action to make
something or somebody quiet, calm, typically in a medical context (I've
even seen a posting "pedosedazione" in a dentistry institute to
indicate the department to give anaesthetic to children), and I've heard
the same in English (my mother had gastroscopy under sedation
["gastroscopia sotto sedazione'] in Scotland).

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Giovanni Drogo wrote:

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, wrote:

Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that goes
along with it)

Do you really use the word "sedation" in this context to indicate the
action of settling down ? I may be biased by the fact we in Italian
would use the word "insediamento" which would indicate both the action
of settling down, and a settlement as a place.

In my language the word "sedazione" means only the action to make
something or somebody quiet, calm, typically in a medical context (I've
even seen a posting "pedosedazione" in a dentistry institute to
indicate the department to give anaesthetic to children), and I've heard
the same in English (my mother had gastroscopy under sedation
["gastroscopia sotto sedazione'] in Scotland).

I checked with NSOED, and it does not recognise the use of "sedation"
or "sedate" to refer in any way to the creation of settlements.

There is, however, a tendency in America to create verbs. It even has
its own verb: verb.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

Giovanni Drogo wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, wrote:

Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that goes
along with it)

Do you really use the word "sedation" in this context to indicate the
action of settling down ? I may be biased by the fact we in Italian
would use the word "insediamento" which would indicate both the action
of settling down, and a settlement as a place.

In my language the word "sedazione" means only the action to make
something or somebody quiet, calm, typically in a medical context (I've
even seen a posting "pedosedazione" in a dentistry institute to
indicate the department to give anaesthetic to children), and I've heard
the same in English (my mother had gastroscopy under sedation
["gastroscopia sotto sedazione'] in Scotland).
[snip]

I don't have the reference handy, and I'll admit when I wrote it, the
word didn't "look" right to me. But that was the concept the author
I'm thinking of meant, to settle in relative permanence. It was
evidence
by the presence of constructed shelters and the extensiveness of
fire pits and basically "trash".

Giovanni Drogo wrote:

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, wrote:


Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that goes
along with it)


Do you really use the word "sedation" in this context to indicate the
action of settling down ? I may be biased by the fact we in Italian
would use the word "insediamento" which would indicate both the action
of settling down, and a settlement as a place.

In my language the word "sedazione" means only the action to make
something or somebody quiet, calm, typically in a medical context (I've
even seen a posting "pedosedazione" in a dentistry institute to
indicate the department to give anaesthetic to children), and I've heard
the same in English (my mother had gastroscopy under sedation
["gastroscopia sotto sedazione'] in Scotland).

That's also the only use of "sedation" I've encountered in
English, despite a lifetime of voracious reading in my
native tongue. However, it might be a technical term, since
I have no expertise in building construction, past or present.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:55:35 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Giovanni Drogo wrote:

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, wrote:

Basically I have read that there is evidence that "sedation"
(building of permanent settlements and the infrastructure that goes
along with it)

Do you really use the word "sedation" in this context to indicate the
action of settling down ? I may be biased by the fact we in Italian
would use the word "insediamento" which would indicate both the action
of settling down, and a settlement as a place.

In my language the word "sedazione" means only the action to make
something or somebody quiet, calm, typically in a medical context (I've
even seen a posting "pedosedazione" in a dentistry institute to
indicate the department to give anaesthetic to children), and I've heard
the same in English (my mother had gastroscopy under sedation
["gastroscopia sotto sedazione'] in Scotland).

I checked with NSOED, and it does not recognise the use of "sedation"
or "sedate" to refer in any way to the creation of settlements.

There is, however, a tendency in America to create verbs. It even has
its own verb: verb.

I think that also happens in British English. There was no pure
English even before the USA!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--