Travelling to Rio

"B H" wrote in message
...

I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official ones
(I think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official) and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least. But
from there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer, but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

Borge,

I'll try to shed some light on the subject.

But first some clarifications about my position. I live in Rio de Janeiro,
but I'm not a Brazilian. I'm a guest in this country. I can have opinions
about things I see. I can point out things I consider wrong. I can express
preferences. I can make suggestions. But I can't tell Brazilians how to run
their country. If I don't like what's happening, I'm free to leave.

The unofficial parking attendants are called 'flanelinhas' The word is
derived from 'flanela', a piece of cloth which they use to wave to
approaching motorists, telling them that they have a space to offer. I
believe originally it was used to wipe the door handle so that the
'customer' wouldn't make his hands dirty. You'll find flanelinhas in most
major cities of Brazil (I don't say 'all' because I don't know all of them).
In fact, you find them everywhere where there are loads of cars but only
limited space for parking them. (Just like you find vultures only where
there is a good supply of cadavers.) Flanelinhas are one of my pet hates.
They occupy a part of a public road and charge for parking there. But I
already paid for that road with my taxes! "Charging" this varies, depending
on where and when you park. During the day, in some areas, they may just
expect a tip for having helped you find a space and maneuver into it. If you
go to a theatre performance at night they'll demand payment up front and
they'll specify how much.

The official parking arrangements vary from city to city and I can only
comment on Rio, where the system is called "vaga certa". The attendants wear
vests which identify them as official, but more importantly, they issue
tickets which you display inside your car as proof that you have paid. The
ticket, which costs two reais, entitles you to park in any other "vaga
certa" during that day. The attendants are on some kind of free-lance
arrangement with the city council. They receive the two reais and have to
pay 70 centavos to the council for each ticket.

Let me try to put all of this into context, by telling you two stories.

1) I grew up in Germany, in a town of about 100.000 inhabitants. This was a
long time ago, I still remember seeing some bombed out buildings from WWII.
The city council had decided to build a new road which would bypass the
business centre and had designated an area where destroyed houses would not
be re-built and existing houses would be pulled down. It was a long, slow
process and at one time the council decided to turn some land which had
already been set aside for the new road temporarily into a car park. They
just put a layer of asphalt on it and marked the spaces. There were no
meters and no other charge for using the car park. The people who lived
nearby were not well-off. I wouldn't say it was a slum, but the houses had
been ear-marked for destruction and nobody was investing any money in
modernizing them. Those who could afford something better had already left.
The ones who were still living there were waiting to be re-housed by the
council. As soon as the car park was put into operation, you could see the
local kids running around, guiding motorists into available spaces, opening
the door for them and holding up their hands, expecting a reward for their
efforts. That was roughly 50 years ago, in a country that was going through
an 'economic miracle', at a time when unemployment was virtually
non-existent. And it wasn't even a major city.

2) Last fall, I went to Canada on vacation. I had a hard time finding a
place to park my rental car in downtown Toronto, near Yonge Street. Some of
the streets in the area were lined with parking meters and there was even
the occasional empty space. But meters have their limitations. Firstly, you
need a plentiful supply of coins to feed them. Secondly you need to know how
long you're going to stay. If you overestimate, your money's lost; if you
underestimate, you get a fine. (I did in fact get a fine, later, in
Montreal, for overstaying by 6 minutes!. The meter in question only accepted
quarters and the people I tried to ask if they could change my toonie into
quarters all gave me a wide berth, assuming I was begging. - But that is a
different story). Then I saw some private car parks where I could park for
as long as I wanted - at some exorbitant price. Now, I *assume* that the
people operating these private car parks pay rent to somebody for their use
of the space; I *assume* that they declare and pay tax on all their income;
I *assume* that the people working their get the wages and benefits workers
in Canada are entitled to. But I still felt I was being robbed. I don't want
to turn this into a tirade against Canada, but what amazed me was the
apparent lack of any kind of urban planning that allowed something as
essential as long-term parking to be controlled by private enterprises. If
Toronto, the largest city in one of the richest countries in the world can't
do better than that, how can we expect Rio to do it?

The flanelinhas in Rio are a problem. Yes, there is a certain degree of
organization, a division of territory between groups. But you can't say
telling someone they have to pay if they want to park here is the same as
holding a gun to their head and demanding all their money. Simply saying
there should be more police is not the answer. The police force we have is
under-paid, under-trained, under-motivated and under-equipped. The rich
don't respect the police. Why should the poor? Why would having more of them
make any difference? You would also have to find an alternative source of
income for the flanelinhas - unless you want to turn them into real
criminals.

Do you want me to point the finger? Well how about this?

Last year, the Brazilian economy achieved a trade surplus of 64 bi USD. That
means the country earned 64 bi USD more for goods and services it exported
than it spent on goods and services it imported. It was a record, the
highest ever achieved. In the same year, Brazil paid around 120 bi USD (I
don't have the exact figure handy) interest to its international creditors.
That's right. Brazil paid almost twice as much in interest than it earned.
How did it do this? By borrowing more. It means, that in the year of its
highest ever trade surplus, the country has gone deeper into debt, has
become poorer.

The government has vowed, already in the run-up to the elections, to meet
all its obligations. Its leadership has come in repeatedly for praise from
the International Monetary Fund and other international finance
institutions. At the same time there are spending cuts; social projects are
reduced to the point of being ineffectual while the international banks are
bleeding the country dry. It is exactly the money the goes in the form of
interest payments to foreign banks which is missing in paying, training and
equipping the police, in investments in infrastructure, in job creation.

It is dangerous to suggest without a detailed analysis that one country's
decisions could be repeated in another country, but the comparison with
Argentina is obvious. Argentina simply said "can't pay, won't pay" and is
offering investors payment of 25% of its debt. Is Brazil really rich enough
to play the 'model child' and pay all its debt?

Just my 2 centavos worth.

Peter
--
___
Já nas livrarias: Dicionário de Expressões Idiomáticas da Língua Inglesa
de Maria Helena Schambil & Peter Schambil, Editora Difel, 560 páginas, R$
59,00
Maiores detalhes: http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~schambil/dic.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "P E T E R P A N"
Newsgroups: rec.travel.latin-america,soc.culture.brazil,rec.travel.misc
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 6:32 PM
Subject: Travelling to Rio


According to the articles I was able to pull out of the net on a quick
search,

[rest snipped]

This makes me wonder why you didn't do your quick search BEFORE you
went.
If I remember your initial post correctly, you were surprised that the
carnival in Rio was not a street event, but took place in the
Sambodromo some way away from the centre of town. You expressed
disappointment that Carnival was basically something where the poor
go, rather than the middle and upper classes. It this was news to you,
you obviously didn't do any research before you went on your trip. All
of which made me conclude that were a real burk and ignore the rest of
your ramblings.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Nobody forced you to come
to Rio. You didn't like it? Too bad. You ran into some nasty people?
I'm sorry to hear that. But what's the crusade about? Fighting the
axis of evil?

Peter

Dear Lise,

You call the initial post below by this dumb loser Kurko a mild
comment? I hate to know what would be considered rude and offensive by
Brazilians!

I posted the bad experience to warn other tourists from running into
the same problem! This stupid jerk Kurko blamed the whole incident on
me, the victim, instead of the muggers! Is that how Brazilians
approach life? Is that fair?

When I posted other articles on organized crimes, this loser Kurko was
not able to debate any issues. He instead started to smear me with
his stupid sexual innuendos and dumb acusations!

I took far more cautions in Rio than in any big city in the world, and
I still came very close to losing my life or suffering serious
injuries at the hands of thugs, who must be hiding in dark corners,
waiting for their preys, right behind the Copacabana Palace hotel!

You think I am naive? I did quite a bit of adventure-type traveling
throughout the world, living very close to the natives to try to
understand the real issues affecting their lives! I did research
information from travel sources and talked to local people in Rio.
However, the well-known poverty and crime problems turned out to be
far worse than all other big cities in the world, shocking in fact!

What I posted about Rio are my true experiences and some articles that
showed the organized crime problem as far more violent and abusive of
the poor people in the favelas than I could previously imagined!
Believe me, my heart is for these poor people. They must have a
horrible life eking out a living doing menial jobs during the day,
then putting up with the abuses by the drug lords at night! By
blaming the crimes on the victims, or hiding the facts about the
crimes, you are not helping anyone but the criminals. You are instead
encouraging the criminals to abuse the favelas residents and the
tourists even more!

Did you see any constructive suggestions from these dumb, nasty jerks
Kurko and JohnM on how the crimes and threats levels in Rio can be
reduced? Or are they just trying to shut me up and cover up the
crimes situation in Rio like they are losing their money and their
pride big time because of my posts?

I am very disappointed in ignorant, dishonest, rude and abusive people
like Kurko and JohnM. I am disappointed in you for siding with these
2 pieces of trash against the truth, and against my attempt to shine
some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio, so some good can be
done.


************************************
Hello!

Excuse me, but by all means who is such a stupid **** to walk during
the
night in any major
city in the world.

Actually these "thugs" should've removed you from the genepool.


Kurko


Lise Sedrez wrote in message ...
Dear Mr. Pan,



3 – Finally, if you get so fired up by a relatively mild comment such as
Kurko’s initial post, well, maybe you should avoid not only the dark
streets of Rio, but also the Usenet altogether. Toughen up!

At this point, please feel free to insult Brazilians for what a born and
raised Brazilian told you. Even worse: I was born and (mostly) raised in
Rio de Janeiro city.

I have seen my beloved, gorgeous city change a lot in the last 20
years—unfortunately not always for good. Having somehow a “gringo”
appearance, I have been mistaken by a tourist very often, by thugs as
well as by well-intentioned cariocas who tried to educate me on how to
be safe in the city. I am glad, however, that it never prevented me from
enjoying my city, and I have never let violence steal from me the right
to uncover its beauty and charm. This doesn’t mean I don’t take
precautions, as everybody else does in Rio. For instance, when I take
friends with me to the Feira de São Cristovão, in a not so safe area,
but where you can find delicious northeastern delicacies, I make sure
that we go there in groups of 4 or 5, and that we leave—also
together—with the family crowd, by midnight. I avoid going out at night
alone, but, if I am all by myself, it is better to go home at 7 am than
at 2 am. And there are many perfectly safe places, not too expensive,
where you can bid your time. Just ask a local person, that is what I do
when a go to another country. (I have also travelled rather
extensively, and, except for one bad experience in the US, which I am
the first to admit that resulted from my being naïve, my ask-a-local
methodology works just fine everywhere). In fact, even when I go to a
new place in Rio, I try to talk to a “native” beforehand, asking what is
Ok and what is not ok to do in such place—be it a favela, a new
neighborhood, or only a more isolated patch of forest.

As I current live in a suburb city in the US, where most restaurants
close at 9 pm (even on Saturdays!), I miss the midnight dinners, the
dancing, the chorinho bars at Lapa, the kiosks in the Lagoa Rodrigo de
Freitas, the shows and art galleries in the Cultural Corridor, the
saveiro-tour in Guanabara Bay), the mangrove forests, the Tijuca urban
forest, the beaches (each one with a different personality), the
peregrination for used book in "sebos" in downtown Rio, the juice
stands—with oh so many exotic fruit names--, climbing the SugarLoaf (it
is not so difficult, and there are several alternative tourist agencies
that can take you there), the hidden treasures that are the Museu da
Chácara do Céu or the Museu da imagem do inconsciente, the incredible
garden of Burle Marx, the cosmopolitan bars in the Zona Sul and the
little-town feeling in some suburbs… I could go on and on.

Again, I am sorry that you had a bad experience in Rio; but I am even
sorrier for you, that you allowed that experience to blind you for
everything Rio could have offered you.

Best,

Lise

Dear Mr. Pan,

P E T E R P A N wrote:

You call the initial post below by this dumb loser Kurko a mild
comment? I hate to know what would be considered rude and offensive by
Brazilians!

Let me see: there was only one f-word, one comment regarding the wisdom
of your behavior, and a suggestion regarding your participation in the
genetic pool. No mention of race, sexual orientation or capacity,
Hitler, graphic obscenity, profanity or blasphemy, and no mention to
your parents, grandparents or (at least in the initial post) your whole
culture and nationality. For Usenet? oh, yes, it is mild. Insulting, but
mildly so.

I posted the bad experience to warn other tourists from running into
the same problem! This stupid jerk Kurko blamed the whole incident on
me, the victim, instead of the muggers! Is that how Brazilians
approach life? Is that fair?

I think we had already established that Mr. Kurko is not Brazilian. And
pointing risky behavior is NOT the same as blaming the victim. My
husband was once robbed in Torino of all his money, after letting his
wallet on a table for a couple of minutes, while talking to a friend. Of
course the thief is the guilty part, but knowing this did not prevent my
husband from feeling, as Mr. Kurko would put it, “a stupid ****” for not
paying enough attention to his wallet.

Regarding your intentions in posting your bad experience, well, I would
rather not to comment on that. People are free to read the post and take
their conclusions.

(snip)

Did you see any constructive suggestions from these dumb, nasty jerks
Kurko and JohnM on how the crimes and threats levels in Rio can be
reduced? Or are they just trying to shut me up and cover up the
crimes situation in Rio like they are losing their money and their
pride big time because of my posts?

Again, neither Mr. Kurko nor JohnM are Brazilians—although I should
point out that JohnM is the author of an excellent book on Brazil, much
more revealing, thoughtful insights, with many more denounces about
organized crime, denounces of inequality and wrongdoings, portraits of
life in favelas, tourist traps, in Rio, São Paulo, Amazon, Recife, Rio
Grande do Sul, Minas Gerais and many other places, than any of your
posts. No, it is not a flattering book—not in the easy sense of the
word—but it is very passionate.


I am very disappointed in ignorant, dishonest, rude and abusive people
like Kurko and JohnM. I am disappointed in you for siding with these
2 pieces of trash against the truth, and against my attempt to shine
some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio, so some good can be
done.


Mr. Pan , I don’t understand how you can be possibly disappointed in me.
I mean, I am one of those people among which you “found, through my own
experience, some serious flaws of characters [in theBrazilian people in
Rio]”, you know, one of those with “disturbingly bad attitudes [among
various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in Rio, Sao Paolo
etc…]. What, I just found out that I am very likely to pee on the
streets! (Hopefully, my mother will never know.) So I wonder how I can
have brought you any disappointment, when your “opinions of Brazil and
her people, after much reviews of the events, facts and
rationalizations, to be honest, [are already] very low,” or as you put
in another post, “that Brazil is a very unsafe, lawless place, populated
by a lot of dumb savages” (that would be me) who “would p*ss on
sidewalks and someone else' cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day
light, who should be removed from the gene pool!” Mostly Brazilians,
according to you, can be characterized as “uncivilized jerks” [Mr.
Kurko’s attitude--did I mentioned that he is not Brazilian?--is supposed
to be “typical of many, if not the majority, Brazilians I
encountered.”], and show a “lack of honesty [that] is the complete
opposite of the people in Argentina and US!” We belong to “the country
of dumb, unprincipled losers” and “some Brazilians and residents of
Brazil do appear to have probably the worst, the most uncivil attitudes
among the peoples I visited!” All of this in a quite ugly city/ country,
as “the scenaries in Rio is [sic] much poorer than many places in North
America, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean... Rio is full of homeless,
undesirables people sleeping on the streets, watching tourists intensely
for the opportunities to commit crimes!” What a terrible contrast with
the “friendly, fun, warm, honest, civilized, law-abiding Americans!”

Considering such low expectations, I can’t understand how I can have
disappointed you.

But you know what? I find out that I really don’t care.

Neither do I care in engaging in discussions--about
Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever—with you. You are, of course, entitled to
your views about Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever. I am entitled to be
selective regarding my interlocutors. If you believe that it is because
I feel some kind of “deep shame” about myself and my society, “that
prevent” me “from discussing some of these problems openly and honestly,
at any level, emotional, intellectual or educational…” it is just too bad.

I will, of course, thank you wholeheartedly for your very sincere
intentions of shining “some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio
[at the Usenet], so some good can be done”, as your “heart is for these
poor people” in the favelas of Rio, for whom you have already manifested
such warm feelings.

Sincerely,
Lise

Dear Mr. Pan,

P E T E R P A N wrote:

You call the initial post below by this dumb loser Kurko a mild
comment? I hate to know what would be considered rude and offensive by
Brazilians!

Let me see: there was only one f-word, one comment regarding the wisdom
of your behavior, and a suggestion regarding your participation in the
genetic pool. No mention of race, Hitler, heavy obscenity, profanity or
blasphemy, and no mention to your parents, grandparents or (at least in
the initial post) your whole culture and nationality. For Usenet? oh,
yes, it is mild. Insulting, but mildly so.

I posted the bad experience to warn other tourists from running into
the same problem! This stupid jerk Kurko blamed the whole incident on
me, the victim, instead of the muggers! Is that how Brazilians
approach life? Is that fair?

I think we had already established that Mr. Kurko is not Brazilian. And
pointing risky behavior is NOT the same as blaming the victim. My
husband was once robbed in Torino of all his money, after letting his
wallet on a table for a couple of minutes, while talking to a friend. Of
course the thief is the guilty part, but knowing this did not prevented
my husband from feeling, as Mr. Kurko would put it, “a stupid ****” for
not paying enough attention to his wallet.

Regarding your intentions in "posting your bad experience," well, I
would rather not to comment on that. People are free to read the post
and take their own conclusions.

(snip)

Did you see any constructive suggestions from these dumb, nasty jerks
Kurko and JohnM on how the crimes and threats levels in Rio can be
reduced? Or are they just trying to shut me up and cover up the
crimes situation in Rio like they are losing their money and their
pride big time because of my posts?

Again, neither Mr. Kuko nor JohnM are Brazilian—thought I should point
out that JohnM is the author of an excellent book on Brazil, much more
revealing, with many more thoughtful insights, many more denounces about
organized crime, or denounces of inequality and wrongdoings, or
portraits of life in favelas, or tourist traps, in Rio, São Paulo,
Amazon, Recife, Rio Grande do Sul, Minas Gerais and many other places,
than any of your posts. No, it is not a flattering book—not in the easy
sense of the word—but it is very passionate.


I am very disappointed in ignorant, dishonest, rude and abusive people
like Kurko and JohnM. I am disappointed in you for siding with these
2 pieces of trash against the truth, and against my attempt to shine
some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio, so some good can be
done.

Mr. Pan , I don’t understand how you can be possibly disappointed in me.
I mean, I am one of those people among which you “found, through my own
experience, some serious flaws of characters [in the Brazilian people in
Rio]”, you know, one of those with “disturbingly bad attitudes [among
various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in Rio, Sao Paolo
etc…]. What, I just found out that I am very likely to pee on the
streets! (Hopefully, my mother will never know.) So I wonder how I can
have brought you any disappointment, when your “opinions of Brazil and
her people, after much reviews of the events, facts and
rationalizations, to be honest, [are already] very low,” or as you put
in another post, “that Brazil is a very unsafe, lawless place, populated
by a lot of dumb savages” (that would be me) who “would p*ss on
sidewalks and someone else' cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day
light, who should be removed from the gene pool!” Most Brazilians,
according to you, can be characterized as “uncivilized jerks” [Mr.
Kurko’s attitude--did I mentioned that he is not Brazilian?--is supposed
to be “typical of many, if not the majority, Brazilians I
encountered.”], and they show a “lack of honesty [that] is the complete
opposite of the people in Argentina and US!” We belong to “the country
of dumb, unprincipled losers” and “some Brazilians and residents of
Brazil do appear to have probably the worst, the most uncivil attitudes
among the peoples I visited!” All of this in a quite ugly city/ country,
as “the scenaries in Rio is much poorer than many places in North
America, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean... Rio is full of homeless,
undesirables people sleeping on the streets, watching tourists intensely
for the opportunities to commit crimes!” What a terrible contrast with
the “friendly, fun, warm, honest, civilized, law-abiding Americans!”

Considering your expectations, I don't understand how I can have
disappointed you.

But you know what? I find out that I really don’t care.

Neither do I care in engaging in discussions--about
Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever—with you. You are, of course, entitled to
your views about Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever. I am entitled to be
selective regarding my interlocutors. If you believe that it is because
I feel some kind of “deep shame” about myself and my society, “that
prevent” me “from discussing some of these problems openly and honestly,
at any level, emotional, intellectual or educational…” it is just too bad.

I will, of course, thank you wholeheartedly for your very sincere
intentions of shining “some light on this horrible crime problems in
Rio, so some good can be done” [???], as your “heart is for these poor
people” in the favelas of Rio, for whom you have already manifested such
warm feelings.

Sincerely,
Lise

Dear Mr. Pan,

P E T E R P A N wrote:

You call the initial post below by this dumb loser Kurko a mild
comment? I hate to know what would be considered rude and offensive by
Brazilians!

Let me see: there was only one f-word, one comment regarding the wisdom
of your behavior, and a suggestion regarding your participation in the
genetic pool. No mention of race, Hitler, heavy obscenity, profanity or
blasphemy, and no mention to your parents, grandparents or (at least in
the initial post) your whole culture and nationality. For Usenet? oh,
yes, it is mild. Insulting, but mildly so.

I posted the bad experience to warn other tourists from running into
the same problem! This stupid jerk Kurko blamed the whole incident on
me, the victim, instead of the muggers! Is that how Brazilians
approach life? Is that fair?

I think we had already established that Mr. Kurko is not Brazilian. And
pointing risky behavior is NOT the same as blaming the victim. My
husband was once robbed in Torino of all his money, after letting his
wallet on a table for a couple of minutes, while talking to a friend. Of
course the thief is the guilty part, but knowing this did not prevent my
husband from feeling, as Mr. Kurko would put it, “a stupid ****” for not
paying enough attention to his wallet.

Regarding your intentions in "posting your bad experience," well, I
would rather not to comment on that. People are free to read the post
and take their own conclusions.

(snip)

Did you see any constructive suggestions from these dumb, nasty jerks
Kurko and JohnM on how the crimes and threats levels in Rio can be
reduced? Or are they just trying to shut me up and cover up the
crimes situation in Rio like they are losing their money and their
pride big time because of my posts?

Again, neither Mr. Kuko nor JohnM are Brazilian—thought I should point
out that JohnM is the author of an excellent book on Brazil, much more
revealing, with many more thoughtful insights, many more denounces about
organized crime, or denounces of inequality and wrongdoings, or
portraits of life in favelas, or tourist traps, in Rio, São Paulo,
Amazon, Recife, Rio Grande do Sul, Minas Gerais and many other places,
than any of your posts. No, it is not a flattering book—not in the easy
sense of the word—but it is very passionate.


I am very disappointed in ignorant, dishonest, rude and abusive people
like Kurko and JohnM. I am disappointed in you for siding with these
2 pieces of trash against the truth, and against my attempt to shine
some light on this horrible crime problems in Rio, so some good can be
done.

Mr. Pan , I don’t understand how you can be possibly disappointed in me.
I mean, I am one of those people among which you “found, through my own
experience, some serious flaws of characters [in the Brazilian people in
Rio]”, you know, one of those with “disturbingly bad attitudes [among
various young, old, educated and wealthy Brazilians in Rio, Sao Paolo
etc…]. What, I just found out that I am very likely to pee on the
streets! (Hopefully, my mother will never know.) So I wonder how I can
have brought you any disappointment, when your “opinions of Brazil and
her people, after much reviews of the events, facts and
rationalizations, to be honest, [are already] very low,” or as you put
in another post, “that Brazil is a very unsafe, lawless place, populated
by a lot of dumb savages” (that would be me) who “would p*ss on
sidewalks and someone else' cars on the busy streets of Rio in broad day
light, who should be removed from the gene pool!” Most Brazilians,
according to you, can be characterized as “uncivilized jerks” [Mr.
Kurko’s attitude--did I mentioned that he is not Brazilian?--is supposed
to be “typical of many, if not the majority, Brazilians I
encountered.”], and they show a “lack of honesty [that] is the complete
opposite of the people in Argentina and US!” We belong to “the country
of dumb, unprincipled losers” and “some Brazilians and residents of
Brazil do appear to have probably the worst, the most uncivil attitudes
among the peoples I visited!” All of this in a quite ugly city/ country,
as “the scenaries in Rio is much poorer than many places in North
America, Europe, Asia, the Caribbean... Rio is full of homeless,
undesirables people sleeping on the streets, watching tourists intensely
for the opportunities to commit crimes!” What a terrible contrast with
the “friendly, fun, warm, honest, civilized, law-abiding Americans!”

Considering your expectations, I don't understand how I can have
disappointed you.

But you know what? I find out that I really don’t care.

Neither do I care in engaging in discussions--about
Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever—with you. You are, of course, entitled to
your views about Brazil/Rio/Brazilians/whatever. I am entitled to be
selective regarding my interlocutors. If you believe that it is because
I feel some kind of “deep shame” about myself and my society, “that
prevent” me “from discussing some of these problems openly and honestly,
at any level, emotional, intellectual or educational…” it is just too bad.

I will, of course, thank you wholeheartedly for your very sincere
intentions of shining “some light on this horrible crime problems in
Rio, so some good can be done” [???], as your “heart is for these poor
people” in the favelas of Rio, for whom you have already manifested such
warm feelings.

Sincerely,
Lise

Lise Sedrez schrieb:

Mr. Pan , I don’t understand how you can be possibly disappointed in me.

Eu já disse hoje que eu sou seu fã?

JL

Why did JohnM not post some info about the horrible drug lords and
crime problems in Rio so everyone can be alert? Why did JohnM instead
try to poke holes in the victim's story?

JohnM sure appears like he's not acting with honest, unselfish
motivations!

Is JohnM trying to conceal the horrific nature of crimes in Rio to
lure more visitors in, so he can sell more books?


João Luiz wrote in message ...
P E T E R P A N schrieb:

This stupid, nasty guy JohnM was not able to provide any information
or any arguments to defend his interests in Brazil,

Actually, he IS ABLE to provide that kind of information, and maybe in
more detail than you might ever be able to absorb:

http://www.fetchbook.co.uk/search_18...b_reviews.html

JL

New-York - Year 2000 - Crime statistics

Violent = 124,890
Property = 483,078
Murder = 952
Rape = 3,530
Robbery = 40,539
Assault = 60,090
Burglary = 87,946
Theft = 395132

WAS

"P E T E R P A N" a écrit dans le message de
m...
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getawa...99/dngr28.html

January 28, 1999
List names most dangerous stops for business travelers

POST-INTELLIGENCER NEWS SERVICES

Air Security International, a 10-year-old Houston company that
provides security services for traveling executives, has issued a list
of what it considered last year to be the most dangerous
business-travel destinations in the world.

The company's listing of travel dangers is largely based on the
detailed reports of paid agents -- including employees of airports and
international corporations, and owners of overseas businesses --
working in the field.

The dangerous destinations are divided into four risk categories:
crime, kidnapping, political violence and wars or insurgencies.

The only destination to appear in all four categories is Colombia.

That country is cited as the one with the most kidnappings, as home to
"the longest insurgency in the Western Hemisphere," and for its high
crime rate exacerbated by the cocaine trade, as well as bombings,
assassinations, guerrilla insurgencies and power struggles among drug
lords, politicians, judges and the military.

The 10 places cited for their dangerously high crime rate are
Johannesburg ("carjackings, robberies and assaults continue
unabated"), Mexico City (corrupt police and "taxi-related crime"),
Tijuana ("getting a reputation as the next Medellin"), Sao Paulo, Rio
de Janeiro, Papua New Guinea (gangs armed with high-powered rifles,
machetes, even grenade launchers), Kazakhstan ("corrupt officials and
police impostors continue to target foreigners"), Lagos (pickpocketing
to armed robbery and murder), Moscow and Colombia.

The company found a heightened threat of kidnapping in five places.
Besides Colombia, they were the Caucasus region of Russia ("extremely
common"), Mexico ("rings operate throughout the country"), the
Philippines (where it's on the decline, but still prevalent) and Yemen
(tribesmen seeking government concessions use foreigners as bargaining
chips).

The political-violence category cites Bangladesh, where labor strife
has been known to turn violent; Indonesia, where violence between
security forces and demonstrators still flares on occasion; Pakistan,
where "more than 4,000 people have died in ethnic, sectarian and
political violence in Karachi since 1995" and, yes, Colombia.




"B H" wrote in message
...
I think PETER PAN refers to my posting about crime/pickpocket aviodance
guide in a thread
further down here (rec.travel.latin-america).
I was the one who experienced the problem with the self-appointed
parking
attendant.
I think there are at least two kinds of parking attendants. Official
ones (I
think I have heard
that they have som kind of cloth or id to be sure they are official) and
self-appointed ones.
The one I met certainly looked highly unofficial to say the least. But
from
there to say that
he is into some organised crime and mafia is taking it a bit far (but of
course I do not know that).
Can anyone shed some light on the facts here? Are there official and
self-appointed parking
attendants, or just official ones in Rio? I think I know the answer, but
would like a more
qualified statement than my own here.

Borge

"Kurko" wrote in message
news
3. In 3rd world countries there are JOBS like parking attendants.
These
guys have
actually licence to operate as such (atleast in Rio they do). There is
no
MAFIA involved here, just some people trying to get their livelihood
with
honest way (read
not robbing the tourists).

Who is this idiot, Craig D. Guillot. What a crock of Sh_t.
I have lived in Rio for 3 years and I can tell you that there are
very, very few Porches and BMW's or any other expensive cars in Rio.
Most of the people that can afford them do not buy them. They do not
want to call attention to themselves. It is a poor country and yes
there is a very large difference between the have and have-not's.
This country, of over 175,000,000, has only 3% of its population
graduating collage. With the average Brazilian never going past the
8th grade what can you expect. It's a shame when a person can actually
earn more by begging on the streets then by working. I pass a street
every day that has a young boy of about 16 or 17 years old sleeping on
the side walk. I actually felt sorry for him and on occasions I would
by him food…. I assumed he lived on that street and lived in the
cardboard box he slept on. One morning at 7 am I had to walk down the
street and the boy was noticeably absent. I asked the doorman of the
building next to where the boy had been laying where he was and he
said he usually showed up at about 9am with his box and leaves about
8pm…. When by begging they can earn you as much in a month as someone
working 45 hours a week. What incentive do they have to work? I now
tell my friends NOT to give them anything.. sounds heartless but I
don't care…

I guess Craig D. Guillot has never been to NYC with the street people
there being ignored by all the New Yorkers. I think he should have a
very good carrier as a fiction writer.






The Ghosts of Rio
By Craig D. Guillot

Christ watched over me, high on his hill in the distance, as I
prowled the streets of Ipanema's shopping district on a muggy
September afternoon.
Behind the thick glass windows of the ritzy stores lay the products
destined for Rio's elite. Up and down the avenue cruised some of the
newest luxury cars on the market, as the upper class pranced along in
their designer clothes, gold jewelry, and cash-laced wallets. There
was a sale on gold Rolexes, and Ferrari had one of its newer models in
stock. Next door, a new shipment of Persian rugs had arrived.

I thought for a minute that I had stepped into Beverly Hills or New
York's 5th Avenue, but as I looked harder, beneath the glitter and
glamour of Ipanema, I could see something entirely different. Between
the stores and malls, stood nervous men armed with Uzis and AK-47s.
With fingers rubbing the triggers, their bloodshot eyes wandered up
and down the block.

They were on the lookout for ghosts.

Among the Porsches and BMWs creeped the ramshackle city buses, packed
with the rest of Rio's 10 million residents. Crammed like sardines in
a tin can, the desperate souls in fourth-hand clothes leered and
pointed at the commerce around them. Belching clouds of exhaust, the
buses cruised towards the shantytown favelas rising high into the
mountains. It was a cruel, teasing form of urban planning, where day
after day the poor would look down to see the world that didn't want
them; nowhere on earth does such wealth and poverty lay side by side.

Along the elaborately designed sidewalks and outside the jewelry
stores, lay the occasional motionless body. A small child was curled
up underneath a sidewalk bench, while a legless man begged on the
corner. Then there was an old woman, who lay in a pile of trash on the
shoulder of the road. With her head resting upon her hands, she slept
like a baby as cars raced past only inches from her head. A taxi
pulled up alongside of her as two women, with gold necklaces and bags
of loot, stepped right over the sleeping body.

Across the street, a group of small children, with dirtied faces and
rags around their malnourished bodies, scurried underneath the outdoor
tables of restaurants in search of crumbs. They looked just like
pigeons pecking for birdseed in a park. It wasn't long before a
bearded man with an automatic weapon chased them away like a pack of
wild dogs.

Every block or two, a body lay right across the sidewalk. I did as the
cariocas, Rio's residents, did, and stepped right over them. The
cariocas shopped for gold and talked on their cell phones, as the rest
of the city died beneath their feet. The poor simply did not exist.

Out of the corner of my eye, I watched a man emerge from what appeared
to be a small drainage hole. Slowly standing into a hunchback
position, he started to wobble his way onto the sidewalk. Draped in
torn, filthy rags, he had a ski mask on his head; it was tilted
sideways, so that only the right eye showed, but through the left
hole. A large tear in the rags around his body revealed what appeared
to be burnt and disfigured skin.

The man crept his way in my direction, dragging his aching feet along
the concrete as men with Armani suits and Rolex watches scurried
around him. Mothers led their children around the trail of blood,
while others trudged right on through, as if the blood were just a
puddle of water.

As the monster walked in front of the small store where I was
standing, a man with a pistol strapped to his waist came outside and
started yelling at him. All I could understand of the Portuguese was
"Leave, leave... you are f*****g up the sidewalk!"

The masked man slowly wandered into the street. Cars honked their
horns and swerved around him. A splashing sound suddenly caught my
attention. I looked back down the sidewalk: a shop owner was dumping
buckets of water on the blood.

As the masked figure made it to the other side of the street, he
dropped down onto an open area of concrete, falling on his back. The
enormous pool of blood forming from his feet made it apparent that
death was coming for him. While the sun started to set, the crowds
began to thin, so that the drug gangs and killers could take control
of the streets. After all, Rio had to meet its annual murder count of
6,000.

Taking one last look at the man, I thought that was why he had crawled
out of that hole in the first place: to die in front of everyone, in
the hope that someone would notice.

Nowhere on earth have I seen such indifference to so much suffering. I
wanted to show the man that I cared. I walked around him.



Kurko wrote in message ...
Simply because in normal daily life its next to impossible to encounter all
these
drug lords, thieves, muggers and murderes. In Rio more annoying are
beggars, shoeshiners and all kinds of sellers not to mention "samba bands".

Rio is very beautiful city (Cidade Maravilhosa), quite safe too for
tourists as long as you understand
and obey the "rule": Don't be stupid.

Kurko

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:40:02 -0500, clint wrote:

After reading all the Rio posts, why with all the wonderful places to go,
would anyone travel to Rio?