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#21
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Alfred Molon wrote: flyinyereye wrote: I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong. I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing them. Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g. stonings and even death. -- Best Greg |
#22
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Alfred Molon wrote: Gregory Morrow wrote: Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a job. As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second - class citizens. Did you see any Jews? There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case not in significant numbers). Do gays have a place in Malaysian society? No. Is this a problem for you ? I'm queer. Next question.... Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or homosexual. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation. It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like that..must just be rumours!.". Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ? Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims and in any case the climate would be generally too hot and humid for me. "When Abdullah Badawi took over from Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in October 2003, Malaysia's first change in leadership in more than two decades, he sounded themes of democracy, good governance, and human rights in his inauguration speech. The new administration, however, has yet to take significant steps toward dismantling Malaysia's legal framework of repression. Prominent human rights concerns in Malaysia include arbitrary detention of alleged militants under the Internal Security Act (ISA); severe restrictions on media freedom; constraints on judicial independence; and abuses against refugees and migrants. Actually Badawi just freed Anwar. snip Malaysian women who are married to non-Malaysian men and give birth to children outside of Malaysia cannot confer citizenship to their children, these children are considered foreigners, into Malaysia. When a child is born outside Malaysia, the child is not conferred citizenship by operation of the law unless the father is a Malaysian citizen.5 A child whose mother is a Malaysian citizen does not share the same privilege. The father must be a Malaysian citizen in order for the child to be conferred citizenship in Malaysia. I know. I'm the father of a beautiful four months old baby and my wife is Malaysian. Our daughter was born here in Germany and won't get a Malaysian passport. So what ? We'll survive ;-) Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections for human rights and a strong rule of secular law? -- Best Greg |
#23
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Pan wrote: On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" wrote: mag3 wrote: Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's not "in your face" at all. in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. I disagree. Have you ever been there? No. Wonderful people. That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s. Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia. Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by themselves and sell to both men and women. Wow! Such progress! Did you see any Jews? There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small Jewish community was persecuted. If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia. Do gays have a place in Malaysian society? Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western countries a few decades ago. Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or homosexual. Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful time visiting there for 9 days this August. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation. Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia. It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like that..must just be rumours!.". [snip] Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany! *Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to the world than National Socialism ever was. -- Best Greg |
#24
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Pan wrote: On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" wrote: mag3 wrote: Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's not "in your face" at all. in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. I disagree. Have you ever been there? No. Wonderful people. That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s. Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia. Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by themselves and sell to both men and women. Wow! Such progress! Did you see any Jews? There never was a big local Jewish community. There used to be one congregation in Penang, and already in the 70s, there were too few of them to have services except when supplemented by Jewish tourists and businessmen for the High Holy Days. It's true that the word "Jew" has often been used as an insult in Malaysian political discourse, but my impression is that the departure of Malaysian Jews had much more to do with economics than anything else. I don't believe the very small Jewish community was persecuted. If my experience last summer is anything to judge by, Jewish tourists are welcome in Malaysia, but you probably wouldn't recognize them because they wouldn't be Orthodox Jews wearing kipot. Plenty of halal but no certified kosher food is to be found in Malaysia. Do gays have a place in Malaysian society? Yes, if they're quiet about it. That was true in various Western countries a few decades ago. Places like Dubai and Kuala Lumpur might put on a very tempting face but anyone who values human rights surely would not choose to live there permanently, especially if you are, say, a woman or Jewish or homosexual. Living there permanently - is that an issue in this thread? I sure as heck wouldn't want to live in Beijing permanently but had a wonderful time visiting there for 9 days this August. Frankly I would not dig being treated like chattel or a pariah or being jailed or worse for my sexual orientation. Women are _NOT_ chattel in Malaysia and do have rights! But yes, if you're gay, you probably don't want to move to Malaysia. It's like visiting Berlin during the 1936 Olympics and saying "Wow! These Germans have got a good thing going! They are friendly and nice and so well - organised...Berlin is really beautiful and modern and we really did not see any of that overt anti - semitism or anything political like that..must just be rumours!.". [snip] Malaysia in 2004 is very far from Nazi Germany! *Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to the world than National Socialism ever was. -- Best Greg |
#25
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote: Alfred Molon wrote: flyinyereye wrote: I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong. I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing them. Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g. stonings and even death. Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus. Are we back to the "monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"? Remember what they say about fools speaking. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted. |
#26
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote: Alfred Molon wrote: Gregory Morrow wrote: Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a job. As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second - class citizens. There are some problems. No-one claimed that Malaysia is perfect. But the position of women is not that low in Malaysia and has been rising. Did you see any Jews? There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case not in significant numbers). Do gays have a place in Malaysian society? No. Is this a problem for you ? I'm queer. Next question.... I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites." Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for adultery and other consensual sexual offenses. Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ? Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims [snip] So we know how seriously to take your remarks. [snip] Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections for human rights and a strong rule of secular law? Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted. |
#27
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:08 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote: Alfred Molon wrote: Gregory Morrow wrote: Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Excellent - women are well integrated in society and most of them have a job. As long as the rule of Shariah is followed women will *always* be second - class citizens. There are some problems. No-one claimed that Malaysia is perfect. But the position of women is not that low in Malaysia and has been rising. Did you see any Jews? There are no Jews in Malaysia. Jews never migrated there (in any case not in significant numbers). Do gays have a place in Malaysian society? No. Is this a problem for you ? I'm queer. Next question.... I'm a strong supporter of gay rights, but I won't boycott a country because "sodomy" is illegal there. "Sodomy" was until recently illegal in various states of my own country, the U.S.A., and I couldn't very well boycott my own country! Do what you like, but don't expect a lot of heterosexuals to boycott Malaysia out of sympathy for "sodomites." Despite the high-profile persecution of Anwar with a humiliating fake charge of "sodomy," I understand that gays who keep a low profile are seldom prosecuted. Malaysia is not a country that stones people for adultery and other consensual sexual offenses. Oh my god - have you ever been to Malaysia ? Nope. Why would I? I loathe Muslims [snip] So we know how seriously to take your remarks. [snip] Isn't it nice to live in a place such as the BRD that has strong protections for human rights and a strong rule of secular law? Yeah. So stay home, because most other countries don't have such strong protections and are places where you wouldn't want to live. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted. |
#28
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote: Pan wrote: On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" wrote: mag3 wrote: Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's not "in your face" at all. in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. I disagree. Have you ever been there? No. Wonderful people. That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level. When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal with people. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s. Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia. Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by themselves and sell to both men and women. Wow! Such progress! What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em. Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got 'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in the mid 1970s and what they're like now. [snip] *Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to the world than National Socialism ever was. As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis had taken over the world, I would never have been born. The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about that. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted. |
#29
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:35:13 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
wrote: Pan wrote: On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 18:28:34 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" wrote: mag3 wrote: Islam Yes, one does see the Islamic orientation of this country but it's not "in your face" at all. in There is very little Arabic script as the national language is "Bahasa Malaysia" (which uses Malays. Romanized alphabet) and not Arabic. Despite the nice facade you saw the fact that it is a mainly Islamic country should be a red flag to you. I disagree. Have you ever been there? No. Wonderful people. That's on a personal level. I am talking about a societal level. When you visit a country, do you deal with societies or people? I deal with people. What is the legal status of the women you saw, their station in life? Malay women, especially in East Coast states ruled now or until recently by PAS, have much higher status than they did in the 1970s. Lots of them own their own businesses. Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia. Malay women are frequently seen driving cars and motorcycles by themselves and sell to both men and women. Wow! Such progress! What exactly do you want to see? Women professors? They've got 'em. Women judges? They've got 'em. Women cabinet ministers? They've got 'em. You are an absolute ignoramus about Malaysia. I know from the inside what things were like in a conservative East Coast village in the mid 1970s and what they're like now. [snip] *Any* nation that follows the rules of Islam is a danger or a potential danger to world stability.. Islam has proven to be a far greater menace to the world than National Socialism ever was. As a Jew, I condemn your offensive remarks. If the Muslims had taken over Europe, it seems likely that Jewish lives would have been better and more secure than they were under hundreds of years of Christian oppression and period pogroms following the Reconquista. If the Nazis had taken over the world, I would never have been born. The Nazis weren't too good to gays, either, in case you forgot about that. Michael If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted. |
#30
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Pan wrote: On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:23:47 GMT, "Gregory Morrow" wrote: Alfred Molon wrote: flyinyereye wrote: I once saw a woman in KL in full black burka, with a pink helium balloon on a string, whilst her husband was casually dressed in jeans, t-shirt and thongs (flip flops). The scene just seemed so wrong. I think these women choose freely to dress like that - nobody is forcing them. Nonsense. They are forced by their families and husbands and societal laws to dress like that. If they don't they'll be shunned - or *worse*, e.g. stonings and even death. Can you name the last time a Malaysian was stoned? You're a bull****ter, which is worse than an ignoramus. Hey you replied ;-p Are we back to the "monolithic Communists," only substituting "Muslims" for "Communists"? Remember what they say about fools speaking. If you close your eyes *very* tightly and just *wish* it you can be in Tirana c. 1959! -- Best Greg |
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