Opinions on trains and planes.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT), PeterL
wrote:

On Aug 18, 9:15*pm, Hatunen wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:00:06 -0600, DevilsPGD

wrote:
What makes you think that check-in and security would be any less stupid
on trains vs planes?

I don't think anyone is afraid that hijackers will fly a train
into a skyscraper.

Bombs on trains are no less dangerous.

Not to the people in skyscrapers. for maximum damage, terrorists
would want to blow up commuter trians, as they did in Madrid. I
seriously doubt, at this point, if anyone wants to cause security
delays boarding commuter trains.

But I haven't ridden any American trains of late.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:54:24 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Tom P" wrote in message
...
JamesStep wrote:
One factor that's often not considered is that around 25% of people
consider themselves nervous flyers, according to some surveys. Many of
these people would probably prefer train travel if it was comparable
to airlines in cost and time.

James

I commute regularly 250 miles inside Germany, sometimes by plane,
sometimes by rail. It is comparable in terms of cost and time - but as
time goes by I am getting more nervous travelling by high speed train than
by air. Trains are intrinsically less safe than airplanes for many
reasons-
- an airplane has two engines. If one stops, it carries on flying.
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these breaks at
high speed, you're dead.

Nope, in most cases what happens is the train limps into the next
station

Unfortuantely, history makes tthat an optimistic appraisal:

Eschede disaster

The ICE accident near Eschede that happened on 3 June 1998 was a
severe railway accident and the worst ever to involve a
high-speed train, as well as the worst railway accident since
modern Germany's foundation in 1949. Trainset 51, travelling as
ICE 884 "Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen" from Munich to Hamburg, derailed
at 200 km/h (125 mph), killing 101 and injuring 88.

The cause of the accident was a wheel rim which broke and damaged
the train six kilometres south of the accident site. The wheel
rim penetrated the carriage floor and lifted the check rail of a
set of points close to Eschede station. The broken-off check rail
then forced the point blades of the following set of points to
change direction, and the rear cars of the trainset were diverted
to a different track. They hit the pillars of a street overpass,
which then collapsed onto the tracks. Only three cars and the
front powerhead passed under the bridge, the rest of the 14-car
train jackknifed into the collapsed bridge.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCityExpress

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:40:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Tom P wrote:
JamesStep wrote:
One factor that's often not considered is that around 25% of people
consider themselves nervous flyers, according to some surveys. Many
of these people would probably prefer train travel if it was
comparable to airlines in cost and time.

James

I commute regularly 250 miles inside Germany, sometimes by plane,
sometimes by rail. It is comparable in terms of cost and time - but
as
time goes by I am getting more nervous travelling by high speed
train
than by air. Trains are intrinsically less safe than airplanes for
many reasons-
- an airplane has two engines. If one stops, it carries on flying.
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these breaks
at high speed, you're dead.

So how many people have died as a result of a single wheel or axle on
a train breaking?

101 on the InterCityExpress near Eschede, Germany in 1998. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCityExpress


--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Tom P.:
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these breaks at
high speed, you're dead.

Keith Willshaw:
Nope, in most cases what happens is the train limps into the next
station

Dave Hatunen:
Unfortuantely, history makes tthat an optimistic appraisal:

Eschede disaster

The ICE accident near Eschede that happened on 3 June 1998 ...

Unclear on the concept of "in most cases"? Keith was right. The
Eschede disaster occurred not only because a badly designed wheel
came apart, but also because of some seriously bad luck as to *where*
it happened.

In addition, "you're dead" is just wrong -- less than half the people
on the train were killed. In the whole history of passenger trains
there have only been a handful of accidents where nobody survived
(the only ones I can think of involved trains being submerged in water);
in 1993 a TGV derailed at full speed (due to unrealized aftereffects of
World War I) with nobody killed and only two passengers slightly injured.

Reporters love train wrecks because there are so many survivors to
interview.

Tom's posting exaggerated the hazards so much that I first took it as
satirical.
--
Mark Brader | Caution
| Do not run on the stairs
Toronto | Use the hand rail
-- notice at British train station
My text in this article is in the public domain.

Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:54:24 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"Tom P" wrote in message
...
JamesStep wrote:
One factor that's often not considered is that around 25% of
people
consider themselves nervous flyers, according to some surveys.
Many of these people would probably prefer train travel if it was
comparable to airlines in cost and time.

James

I commute regularly 250 miles inside Germany, sometimes by plane,
sometimes by rail. It is comparable in terms of cost and time -
but
as time goes by I am getting more nervous travelling by high speed
train than by air. Trains are intrinsically less safe than
airplanes for many reasons-
- an airplane has two engines. If one stops, it carries on
flying.
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these
breaks at high speed, you're dead.

Nope, in most cases what happens is the train limps into the next
station

Unfortuantely, history makes tthat an optimistic appraisal:

Eschede disaster

The ICE accident near Eschede that happened on 3 June 1998 was a
severe railway accident and the worst ever to involve a
high-speed train, as well as the worst railway accident since
modern Germany's foundation in 1949. Trainset 51, travelling as
ICE 884 "Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen" from Munich to Hamburg, derailed
at 200 km/h (125 mph), killing 101 and injuring 88.

The cause of the accident was a wheel rim which broke and damaged
the train six kilometres south of the accident site. The wheel
rim penetrated the carriage floor and lifted the check rail of a
set of points close to Eschede station. The broken-off check rail
then forced the point blades of the following set of points to
change direction, and the rear cars of the trainset were diverted
to a different track. They hit the pillars of a street overpass,
which then collapsed onto the tracks. Only three cars and the
front powerhead passed under the bridge, the rest of the 14-car
train jackknifed into the collapsed bridge.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCityExpress

Which was a unique situation and the problem was fixed. Show us
_another_ one where a wheel failure caused loss of life.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:40:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Tom P wrote:
JamesStep wrote:
One factor that's often not considered is that around 25% of
people
consider themselves nervous flyers, according to some surveys.
Many
of these people would probably prefer train travel if it was
comparable to airlines in cost and time.

James

I commute regularly 250 miles inside Germany, sometimes by plane,
sometimes by rail. It is comparable in terms of cost and time -
but
as
time goes by I am getting more nervous travelling by high speed
train
than by air. Trains are intrinsically less safe than airplanes for
many reasons-
- an airplane has two engines. If one stops, it carries on
flying.
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these
breaks
at high speed, you're dead.

So how many people have died as a result of a single wheel or axle
on
a train breaking?

101 on the InterCityExpress near Eschede, Germany in 1998. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCityExpress

You're late--this has already been discussed.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article 1giqk.178$482.176@trnddc06,
James Silverton not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not wrote:
Given the current cattle-car, skinflint conditions, two hour
check-ins
cattle cars ARE train cars.

Who has a 400 kph train?
A 300 KPH train with stops is not a 300 KPH train.

The Japanese Shinkansen initially ran in 1964 at 210 km/h. Running
speeds of up to 300 km/h (188 mph) have been recorded and test run
speeds have been 443 km/h (275 mph) for conventional rail in 1996, and a
world record of 581 km/h for maglev, in 2003.
....
A French TGV reached 575 kph last year. Not regular scheduled runs but
it shows what is possi9ble.

Clarify. I've heard those numbers.
The key words are "test" and "not."

I've ridden the Spanish service at 300 KPM to Seville from Madrid.
That was from the same station which was bombed (the communter part
after repairs). It's not like they added a whole lot of extra security.

I also rode the overnight from Lisbon to Madrid (minus the Casablanca
plane flight ;^). I should have sprung for a sleeper compartment.

Has maglevs come into service? Who's running them? I didn't go out of
my way to ride a Shinkansen.

--

On 19 Aug 2008 18:10:48 -0800, (Eugene Miya)
wrote:
I have to hash over European travel with whom I occasionally travel for.
While I like the train travel, and the plane travel, some places are
best reached by car. I've been asked to make an appearance at a serious
dog-and-pony show in Pisa. It would be one thing being reimbursed, but
doing this as an official courtesy between governments. This is not to
say that I want to drive a car to Pisa. This isn't a "Go see the Tower"
trip. But the mix of International, then regional, then local trains,
planes (I did look into flights) for such a comparatively short
distance (I can see why the NSF wants me to visit).

Since you didn't say where you were landing before traveling to
Pisa, it's difficult to respond to your comments.


--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

In article ,
Jochen Kriegerowski wrote:
"Eugene Miya" schrieb
Who has a 400 kph train?

Europe. The French TGV currently holds the speed record, with 574.8 kph
(But the German ICE is just slightly slower)
It's the tracks, and the frequent stops, that limit the speed to 320 kph.

Naw, that's like quoting supercomputer performance.

Which stretches of the ICE run at 320 KPH?

The TGV I can believe (even w/o riding on one). I've ridden the ICE
just not at those speeds.

The US with the long distances between towns would be ideal for
high speed trains running at 400+ kph.

Somewhat. We'd have to do smart planning, but considering the USA I
have my cynical doubts (with tee shirts).

I own George's European rail books, but I've got them loaned out to friends
who are planning to come on my next trip to those parts of the Continent.

--

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:37:39 -0500, (Mark Brader)
wrote:

Tom P.:
A train has dozens of wheels and axles. If just one of these breaks at
high speed, you're dead.

Keith Willshaw:
Nope, in most cases what happens is the train limps into the next
station

Dave Hatunen:
Unfortuantely, history makes tthat an optimistic appraisal:

Eschede disaster

The ICE accident near Eschede that happened on 3 June 1998 ...

Unclear on the concept of "in most cases"? Keith was right. The
Eschede disaster occurred not only because a badly designed wheel
came apart, but also because of some seriously bad luck as to *where*
it happened.

Where it happened was on a high speed train; I doubt that a train
travelling below 100kph would have had such a catastrophe.



--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *