Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!

On May 5, 9:37*pm, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. *I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.

--
"It is illuminating for purposes of reflection, if not for
argument, to note that one of the greatest 'fictions' of our
federal system is that the Congress exercises only those powers
delegated to it, while the remainder are reserved to the States or
to the people. The manner in which this Court has construed the
Commerce Clause amply illustrates the extent of this fiction.",
Hodel v. Virginia Surface Mining, 452 U.S. 264, 307 (1981)

Pass a check through DMV of course is what I meant. I guess you have
never heard of ID theft? Looking up old birth records and getting a
good ID in that name?, etc.

As I said, they are easily avialable and will pass normal police
procedural checks. I used to do this stuff as a living and turned up
more than one - one of them was for a gal on the side of the road that
was hinky. ID looked good but a call to the Registered Owner showed
that gal not only had her ID but had stolen her car.

Harry K

harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:37 pm, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.


Pass a check through DMV of course is what I meant. I guess you have
never heard of ID theft? Looking up old birth records and getting a
good ID in that name?, etc.

The cop has a picture of the perp and can compare it to the real
picture on file. This isn't possible if you are being asked for ID
to enter a drinking establishment or something like that.



As I said, they are easily avialable and will pass normal police
procedural checks. I used to do this stuff as a living and turned up
more than one - one of them was for a gal on the side of the road that
was hinky. ID looked good but a call to the Registered Owner showed
that gal not only had her ID but had stolen her car.

None of this makes sense. Of course you can take someone's real ID
and use that, until they report it lost or stolen. In any case, the
biometrics won't match.

On Thu, 06 May 2010 04:37:02 +0000, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green
ideas don't sleep furiously)"
wrote:

harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep

I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.

One of the things forgotten here is that there are highway
checkpoints some ways north of the border on highways leading
from the Mexicn border, not to mention temporary and movable road
blocks.

Also, an awful lot of people enter the USA by simply crossing the
border out in the middle of nowhere. They are brought to the
border near, say, Sasabe AZ or on the Tohono O'odham reservation
and brought in a group across the border (and sometimes left
abandoned by their smuggler). In many of these areaas the border
is still marked by only a few strands of barbed wire; The Wall
hasn't reached there yet. The makeshift camps and resting places
of these migrants are found everywhere in the desert. Needless to
say, quite a few of them die of thirst and heat and news items
like "Three Bodies Found In Desert near Arivaca" are commonplace.

Although there are federal border checkpoints well back from the
border, there are many backroads and people smugglers know them
and can avoid the checkpoints (anyone in the more settled East
needs to actually see the terrain out here). It is not uncommon
for the people smuggelers to crowd 16 people into a small panel
van, overloading the van making it low on the axles and a bit
uncontrollable to steer properly. When the police go to stop them
they may take off and lead the police on a 90 mph chase.
Unfortuantely, the drivers lose control and the van may go off
the road and roll. Or, in some cases, crash into some innocents
in a car or truck.

In a recent event, federal officials, with the co-operation of
local police, raided large number of shuttle bus comapanies which
had been posing as chartered, or even scheduled, bus services but
were really transporting illegal immigrants.

One of the big problems with the new law (it really won't be a
law for at least 90 days, and not until all legal challenges are
disposed of) is the burden it imposes on local police, who have
quite enough to do without haing to leave their usual patrols to
take even more suspects to a place of incarceration. What with
the paperwork and all it is a quit time-consuming, and in these
economic times we can't afford the too-few police we do have,
much less add more personnel. Unfortunately, if the officer gets
a call for a more important crime elsewhere while processing an
illegal, the new law will require him to deal with the --
probably -- harmless illegal, since the new law authorizes law
suits against the police oficer by private citizens if he fails
to perform the actions required by the prospective law. This is
why our Pima County sheriff has expressed that he will not make
his deputies conform to the new law. If the law does go into
effect we can expect a flurry of law suites against the sheriff
for this.

Anywone ah thinks this problem is going to be easy to solve needs
to come down here and see what the border and the area near the
border actually looks like.

Anotehr problem is trying to undestand just what sort of behavior
on the part of an illegal is sufficient to cause "reasonable
suspicion" that he is actually illegal. The phrase "reasonale
suspicion" falls easily off the tongue and seems to make the law
a fair one, but I suspect I can go into the Mexican parts of
Tucson (I actually live in a mixed but largely Hispanic
neighborhood) and not be able to tell the illegals from the
legals, and I doubt your typical cop could, either.



--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

From: "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep furiously)"

Organization: Our legacy is not the lives we lived but the lives we leave to
those who come after us.
Newsgroups:
alt.activism.death-penalty,uk.politics.misc,soc.retirement,rec.travel .europe
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:43:55 +0000
Subject: Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!



harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:37 pm, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.


Pass a check through DMV of course is what I meant. I guess you have
never heard of ID theft? Looking up old birth records and getting a
good ID in that name?, etc.

The cop has a picture of the perp and can compare it to the real
picture on file. This isn't possible if you are being asked for ID
to enter a drinking establishment or something like that.

Are you trying to tell me that you have never had an ID photo that doesn't
look like you at all? I have. An awful lot of other people have, too. ID
photos are moments frozen in time. The individual in the photo may have,
for totally innocent reasons, dyed his/her hair, started wearing glasses,
lost/gained a lot of weight. For any of these reasons, that individual's
resemblance to the photo may be minimal.

Donna Evleth

From: Hatunen
Organization: As little as possible
Newsgroups:
alt.activism.death-penalty,uk.politics.misc,soc.retirement,rec.travel .europe
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 10:43:15 -0700
Subject: Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!

On Thu, 06 May 2010 04:37:02 +0000, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green
ideas don't sleep furiously)"
wrote:

harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep

I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.

One of the things forgotten here is that there are highway
checkpoints some ways north of the border on highways leading
from the Mexicn border, not to mention temporary and movable road
blocks.

Also, an awful lot of people enter the USA by simply crossing the
border out in the middle of nowhere. They are brought to the
border near, say, Sasabe AZ or on the Tohono O'odham reservation
and brought in a group across the border (and sometimes left
abandoned by their smuggler). In many of these areaas the border
is still marked by only a few strands of barbed wire; The Wall
hasn't reached there yet. The makeshift camps and resting places
of these migrants are found everywhere in the desert. Needless to
say, quite a few of them die of thirst and heat and news items
like "Three Bodies Found In Desert near Arivaca" are commonplace.

Although there are federal border checkpoints well back from the
border, there are many backroads and people smugglers know them
and can avoid the checkpoints (anyone in the more settled East
needs to actually see the terrain out here). It is not uncommon
for the people smuggelers to crowd 16 people into a small panel
van, overloading the van making it low on the axles and a bit
uncontrollable to steer properly. When the police go to stop them
they may take off and lead the police on a 90 mph chase.
Unfortuantely, the drivers lose control and the van may go off
the road and roll. Or, in some cases, crash into some innocents
in a car or truck.

In a recent event, federal officials, with the co-operation of
local police, raided large number of shuttle bus comapanies which
had been posing as chartered, or even scheduled, bus services but
were really transporting illegal immigrants.

One of the big problems with the new law (it really won't be a
law for at least 90 days, and not until all legal challenges are
disposed of) is the burden it imposes on local police, who have
quite enough to do without haing to leave their usual patrols to
take even more suspects to a place of incarceration. What with
the paperwork and all it is a quit time-consuming, and in these
economic times we can't afford the too-few police we do have,
much less add more personnel. Unfortunately, if the officer gets
a call for a more important crime elsewhere while processing an
illegal, the new law will require him to deal with the --
probably -- harmless illegal, since the new law authorizes law
suits against the police oficer by private citizens if he fails
to perform the actions required by the prospective law. This is
why our Pima County sheriff has expressed that he will not make
his deputies conform to the new law. If the law does go into
effect we can expect a flurry of law suites against the sheriff
for this.

Anywone ah thinks this problem is going to be easy to solve needs
to come down here and see what the border and the area near the
border actually looks like.

Anotehr problem is trying to undestand just what sort of behavior
on the part of an illegal is sufficient to cause "reasonable
suspicion" that he is actually illegal. The phrase "reasonale
suspicion" falls easily off the tongue and seems to make the law
a fair one, but I suspect I can go into the Mexican parts of
Tucson (I actually live in a mixed but largely Hispanic
neighborhood) and not be able to tell the illegals from the
legals, and I doubt your typical cop could, either.

Dave, this is the best explanation I have seen yet of the real situation in
Arizona now. Thank you so much. I do hope Bill Bonde appreciates it as
much as I do. He is British, and I do not know if he has ever been to
Arizona. I have (being originally from California, how could I miss), and
thus understand the basic geography. But I did not know about the shuttle
bus companies. That is something only someone local can know.

Donna Evleth



--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Fri, 07 May 2010 21:32:57 +0200, Donna Evleth
wrote:



From: "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep furiously)"

Organization: Our legacy is not the lives we lived but the lives we leave to
those who come after us.
Newsgroups:
alt.activism.death-penalty,uk.politics.misc,soc.retirement,rec.travel .europe
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:43:55 +0000
Subject: Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!



harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:37 pm, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.


Pass a check through DMV of course is what I meant. I guess you have
never heard of ID theft? Looking up old birth records and getting a
good ID in that name?, etc.

The cop has a picture of the perp and can compare it to the real
picture on file. This isn't possible if you are being asked for ID
to enter a drinking establishment or something like that.

Are you trying to tell me that you have never had an ID photo that doesn't
look like you at all? I have. An awful lot of other people have, too. ID
photos are moments frozen in time. The individual in the photo may have,
for totally innocent reasons, dyed his/her hair, started wearing glasses,
lost/gained a lot of weight. For any of these reasons, that individual's
resemblance to the photo may be minimal.

True enough, but these days putting a photo on an Arizona DL
isn't a cut and paste and laminate it sort of thing. The photo is
somehow integrated into the plastic base material and has a
hologram superimposed. Going to be hard to fake. In any case,
what with the mag strip and data blotch the cop can bring up all
sortsa stuff about the holder that needs to agree with the person
in front of him.

In any case, a forged DL, even without the data required in the
mag strip and data blotch, is no simple thing. I seriously doubt
that these Mexicans, who have managed to put together a few
thousand dollars to pay the "coyote" are going to be able to
afford a phoney AZ DL.


Real old gag.

Cop pulls over a beautiful blonde driving a convertible, asks for
drivers license.

Cop: "This isn't your picture. This is a brunette.

Blonde: "Bleached my hair."

Cop: "And this says you gotta wear glasses!"

Bonde: "I've got contacts."

Cop: "Listen, lady. I don't care who you know. You gotta wear
glasses."



--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On May 5, 9:11*pm, "O'Donovan, PJ, Himself"
wrote:
Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!
by Paul Theroux

*AFP

"Is asking drivers for ID in Arizona so different from cops in Italy
asking train passengers for passports? Travel writer Paul Theroux on
how the new law compares to other countries'.

These people who are protesting being asked for identification by
Arizona cops—have they been anywhere lately, like out of the country?
Like Mexico, or Canada, or India, or Italy, or Tanzania, or Singapore,
or Britain—places where people in uniforms have routinely demanded my
papers?
[cut]

Why is it that right wingers want to turn free liberal democracies
into police states?
Is this official Republican policy PJ?

DM

On Fri, 7 May 2010 17:10:32 -0700 (PDT), DM
wrote:

On May 5, 9:11*pm, "O'Donovan, PJ, Himself"
wrote:
Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!
by Paul Theroux

*AFP

"Is asking drivers for ID in Arizona so different from cops in Italy
asking train passengers for passports? Travel writer Paul Theroux on
how the new law compares to other countries'.

These people who are protesting being asked for identification by
Arizona cops—have they been anywhere lately, like out of the country?
Like Mexico, or Canada, or India, or Italy, or Tanzania, or Singapore,
or Britain—places where people in uniforms have routinely demanded my
papers?
[cut]

Why is it that right wingers want to turn free liberal democracies
into police states?

That does seem ironic.

Is this official Republican policy PJ?

Not yet, since there is no such thing as "official" Republican
policy. Not for lack of trying, of course, by the rightists.




--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On May 7, 8:43*am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:37 pm, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
furiously)" wrote:
harry k wrote:

On May 5, 9:58 am, "Bill Bonde {Colourless green ideas don't sleep
I don't know about getting an _AZ license_ but fake id's that will
pass a normal check are easy (although expensive) to get. *I suspect
any joe blow who wants one can come up with one in less than a day in
any big city.

A normal check by whom? Because if you mean by someone looking at
it and going, yea, that's you, then sure. But explain how a cop,
who will take the document to his car and enter the data in his
computer and look up the instant character, seeing a made up name
on a made up document will let that pass muster.

Pass a check through DMV of course is what I meant. * I guess you have
never heard of ID theft? *Looking up old birth records and getting a
good ID in that name?, etc.

The cop has a picture of the perp and can compare it to the real
picture on file. This isn't possible if you are being asked for ID
to enter a drinking establishment or something like that.

As I said, they are easily avialable and will pass normal police
procedural checks. *I used to do this stuff as a living and turned up
more than one - one of them was for a gal on the side of the road that
was hinky. *ID looked good but a call to the Registered Owner showed
that gal not only had her ID but had stolen her car.

None of this makes sense. Of course you can take someone's real ID
and use that, until they report it lost or stolen. In any case, the
biometrics won't match.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What part of "fake ID" did yiou miss. They start with a search of
birth/death notices, use that to establish their new identity and get
a DL which has their name one it. You must not watch much "cop" type
shows. As I said, obtaining a good fake is not cheap.

In the case of AZ DL, they seem to be a far step ahead of most states
and look like very hard to make a fake. That is why that amendment to
the law specifies 'AZ license is proof'.



Harry K

In article ,
DM wrote:
On May 5, 9:11*pm, "O'Donovan, PJ, Himself"
wrote:
Arizona, Show Your Papers? So What!
by Paul Theroux

*AFP

"Is asking drivers for ID in Arizona so different from cops in Italy
asking train passengers for passports? Travel writer Paul Theroux on
how the new law compares to other countries'.

These people who are protesting being asked for identification by
Arizona cops—have they been anywhere lately, like out of the country?
Like Mexico, or Canada, or India, or Italy, or Tanzania, or Singapore,
or Britain—places where people in uniforms have routinely demanded my
papers?
[cut]

Why is it that right wingers want to turn free liberal democracies
into police states?
Is this official Republican policy PJ?

Why is it some folks do not believe in enforcing
federal laws?

Why do those folks scream "racism!" at everyone who
advocates for enforcing federal laws?

What is it they are afraid of? A nation of laws?

--
"Hate propaganda is an attack on the truth-seeking process itself.
It is directed to subverting and undermining the search for truth."
(David Matas, Bloody Speech, p. 37)
The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org