Istanbul and Gallipoli

You said what I was trying to say - only more eloquently. Thanks.

"Peter Webb" wrote in message
...
You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people.
Just a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
"birthplace" of our nation. It is intimately bound into our idea of what
it means to be an Australian. The annual anniversary of the invasion is a
public holiday, tens of thousands get up at dawn to line the streets at
dawn to "celebrate".

This is an unusual and very healthy thing to celebrate. We comprehensively
lost this battle with tens of thousands killed. It was a complete
disaster. As popular culture would have it, this was a British idea that
wantonly threw away Australian lives. It marked the point where Australia
realised that its interests were not the same as the Brits interest, and
hence marked the real start of our independence from Britian as a separate
and independent Nation (which legally had occurred 14 years before, on
1/1/1901).

I am told it is very common for Australian's to break down and cry when
they visit Gallipoli. Unless you are an Australian or Kiwi, you can have
no idea of this site's importance to our countries. Brits understand some
of this.

Visitting Gallipoli is a bit like visitting US Civil War battlefields.
Unless you are an American, these are just corn fields. Your reaction to
these sites is very, very heavily dependent upon your national and
cultural roots.

In article , Peter Webb
says...
You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people. Just
a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
"birthplace" of our nation. It is intimately bound into our idea of what it
means to be an Australian. The annual anniversary of the invasion is a
public holiday, tens of thousands get up at dawn to line the streets at dawn
to "celebrate".

This is an unusual and very healthy thing to celebrate. We comprehensively
lost this battle with tens of thousands killed. It was a complete disaster.
As popular culture would have it, this was a British idea that wantonly
threw away Australian lives. It marked the point where Australia realised
that its interests were not the same as the Brits interest, and hence marked
the real start of our independence from Britian as a separate and
independent Nation (which legally had occurred 14 years before, on
1/1/1901).

Reminds me of this "the liberty of Germany is defended in the
Hindukush" nonsense a German politician uttered some time ago. It's time
that Germany realises it's not an American colony.
--

Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de - Photos of Asia, Africa and Europe

"Peter Webb" kirjoitti
om.au...
You may think Gallipoli is boring. It probably is for a lot of people.
Just a bit of scrub where people died.

For some people, however, Gallipoli is a very sacred site. For Australians
(in particular) and New Zealanders, it is considered in many ways as the
For Turks it is a place in which they managed to convince the English that
they better mind their own business and do so in some place else. Very
typical a feeling amongst the Finns.

"Alan S" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:19:08 -0400, "Sarah Banick"
wrote:


I think everyone is reading Viviane's meaning incorrectly. I think
she's
trying to say, it's hard to understand the effect the first WW had on
Aussies unless you're an Aussie.

In that case she's wrong. None of them lived through it and they're
feeling what they've been told to feel about it. The experience of
participating in a vicarious orgy of faked-up grief over hyped-up
martyrs you never knew or thought of caring about until Rupert Murdoch
told you about them is common to the whole developed media-brainwashed
world. The UK's version of it was the death of Diana Spencer.

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k ===
http://www.campin.me.uk
====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800
739
557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic
fonts


Hey, I live in the Southern US, where folks still drive around in pickup
trucks with bumperstickers that say, "Forget? Hell!" in reference to a war
that ended in 1865.


You might find this photo I took in 2003 interesting. Click
on the picture and then on "all sizes" to get a pic big
enough to read the signs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/...7604919289274/


Cheers, Alan, Australia


Interesting? :-) Yeah, I see it all the time. We just managed to get the
Confederate flag (the one you see in the photo) off the state of Georgia
Flag (even though it wasn't added to the Georgia flag until 1956). Cost our
last Govenor the election.

I guess this is what makes life such a rich pageant. As an amateur
historian, I know it's important to remember and learn from the past. But
some folks still think they can change it. I'd rather see all that effort go
to solving issues like health care, the environment, clean water, etc.

I am told it is very common for Australian's to break down and cry when
they
visit Gallipoli. Unless you are an Australian or Kiwi, you can have no idea
of this site's importance to our countries. Brits understand some of this.

Visitting Gallipoli is a bit like visitting US Civil War battlefields.
Unless you are an American, these are just corn fields.

Or in many cases today, shopping malls....




Thank you.

Cheers, Alan, Australia

Don't cry, Alan :-p :-)

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:11:34 -0400, "Sarah Banick"
wrote:


Or in many cases today, shopping malls....




Thank you.

Cheers, Alan, Australia

Don't cry, Alan :-p :-)


*sniff*

Cheers, Alan, Australia

[Gallipoli]

For Turks it is a place in which they managed to convince the English
that they better mind their own business and do so in some place else.

That's not its primary significance in Turkey. It's mainly been
promoted as the place where Ataturk first managed to achieve
something, i.e. as a symbol of collective national solidarity
and sacrifice, and as the turning point where the Ottoman regime
slipped into insignificance (reinforced by the War of Liberation
a few years later). It's been turned into a symbol of the racist
nation-state he constructed. I've never seen any anti-British
feeling expressed about it. It didn't matter to Ataturk's fascist
project who the enemy was.

Where anti-British feeling around WW1 did come into play was around
the Treaty of Sevres, which dismembered the Ottoman Empire.

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === http://www.campin.me.uk ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

"Jack Campin - bogus address" kirjoitti
...
[Gallipoli]

For Turks it is a place in which they managed to convince the English
that they better mind their own business and do so in some place else.

a few years later). It's been turned into a symbol of the racist
nation-state he constructed. I've never seen any anti-British
feeling expressed about it. It didn't matter to Ataturk's fascist

I don't believe Turks were too happy about the English military presence
either. I assume the battles in the region themselves can be seen as a proof
about that........ You hardly see much of "anti-English" sentiments in the
USA which was for a long time an English colony. Or in Finland on which the
British government declared war in December 1941.

On 8 Jun, 11:52, Markku Grönroos wrote:
"Jack Campin - bogus address" kirjoitti
... [Gallipoli]

For Turks it is a place in which they managed to convince the English
that they better mind their own business and do so in some place else.

a few years later). *It's been turned into a symbol of the racist
nation-state he constructed. *I've never seen any anti-British
feeling expressed about it. *It didn't matter to Ataturk's fascist

I don't believe Turks were too happy about the English military presence
either. I assume the battles in the region themselves can be seen as a proof
about that........ You hardly see much of "anti-English" sentiments in the
USA which was for a long time an English colony. Or in Finland on which the
British government declared war in December 1941.

More of an automatic reaction when the Finns allied to the Nazis,
although that alliance was for their rather more local reasons.
There's never been any Anglo-Finn emnity I think, nor any actual
warfare? Some of my best friends are Finns, when they're sober! :-))

Surreyman

"Surreyman" kirjoitti
...
On 8 Jun, 11:52, Markku Grönroos wrote:

More of an automatic reaction when the Finns allied to the Nazis,
although that alliance was for their rather more local reasons.
There's never been any Anglo-Finn emnity I think, nor any actual
warfare? Some of my best friends are Finns, when they're sober! :-))
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


There were two sorts of Socialists around at that time. Bolshevik Socialists
and National Socialists. I don't believe one socialist camp was better over
the other.... An Anglo-French fleet sailed in the waters of the Baltic
during the Crimean War in mid 19th century and destroyed the Bomarsund
castle in Ahvenanmaa, Finland. At that time Finland was a "Grand Duchy", a
fairly independent country in the Russian Empire. Naturally those war
efforts were more targeted on Russia rather than Finland. The incident is
known in Finland as "Oolannin sota" (war) (Oolanti, Åland as the Swedish
speaking folks call the archipelago).

There is not one municipality in Sweden where the Swedish speakers have as
strong a majority over other language groups as in some municipalities in
Oolanti. Närpiö, Närpes in mainland Finland was the most Swedish
municipality in this respect just a few years back. It isn't so anymore due
to immigration of non-Swedish speaking people.

Germans have been ****ed about this piece of news which knows to tell that
an English family was granted compensation because their holiday was "in
ruins" because the hotel they booked in was full of Krauts. Well, Germans
have gotten their revenge: there is no English football team playing for the
European football title in Austria and Switzerland.