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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal



 
 
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  #92  
Old January 21st, 2004, 01:09 PM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

Top posting to save time and breath ;-)


Now "Tchiowa", let's return to the original post on the 15th Jan 04 which
posed a few simple questions which were :-

Hang on a minute sport.

Socialism ?

Since when is this name tag so bad?

Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical
record.

Thank you in anticipation ENDS

Simple questions turned into complicated issues "Tchiowa", so here for the
final time is a response general to your posts.

You obviously have a mind set which blithely sweeps history under the carpet
and *the NOW* is where all the action is. Pity really, especially on this
news group, where souls with present and past involvement with the Armed
Services are concerned. In fact, it is a gross insult to those who have
defended this Nation past and present.

I think it appropriate for you to apologize to our members.

Now let me tell you this; largely because history and evolving economic
systems showed a gross failure to comprehend what was happening all around
them ( and remember well; in the past there was plenty of time to make any
decisions versus the limited time because of electronic communications etc
today) millions were to die and live in misery even before Socialism raised
its head. Think about all those Centuries of unfetted power and lust for
expansion. Do you think we should learn something from this, today? Should
we dare return to this power?

Whilst it is very convenient to slam Socialism as you observe it through a
share holders glasses ; consider what system made your preferred Capitalist
system respectable. And continues to do so !! Can you imagine, without
hindrance, from Union's, Professional Societies, Lobby groups etc., how your
Capitalist friends would behave? That my friend, is where history should
become profitable, in solving today's National ailments.

Taking an International turn now, it amazes me, constantly, how we in Oz
fail to observe that we are part of an international economic clique. For
instance, during Keating's time, when everyone was screaming about double
digit inflation in Oz., guess what ? USA , UK and uncle tom cobbley an all
had it too ! Same now with low inflation and low interest rates - it is a
world wide phenomenon, hardly understood by the man in the street and taken
advantage of politically, at the moment by Costello, for home consumption.

I will share with you an interesting part of an e-mail from a Canberra
friend, which I think you, as a rusted on Capitalist would enjoy ;-)

Quote
Australians are very patient people. We've tolerated nearly eight years of
opportunism, political appointments, lies about how well the economy is
doing, lies about 'perceived' threats (aimed to give Howard the right to
play tin soldiers with peoples' lives), a rigged referendum on The Republic,
a PM who has no qualms about sticking taxpayers for a $40,000+ weekend in a
Rome hotel. November 2003 the second worst Balance of Payments on record
(anyone remember Howard's debt truck?).



Want more? An industrial relations outlook which pitted man against
Rottweiler on Melbourne wharves in 1997, the designer of that scheme given a
nice little sinecure in London for his good work. Oh, and he had a problem
with his mobile phone. Governors-General? OK, no-one as intrinsically
nasty as 'Sir' John Kerr, but a totally inept - even if pleasant - Anglican
Bishop followed by an army autonomon. Both hand-picked by a dictator only
surpassed in his unwillingness to consult by 'Sir' Robert Menzies.



And? One Health Minister who was still a practicing medico, another who
tipped off all his mates that computer tomography hardware was going to be
taxed at a reasonable - rather than investor special - rate. Oh yes, and
Wooldridge had a problem with mobile phones too.



The message is simple to The ******* of Bennelong, and his foreign mates,
The Cretin of Crawford and the Boofhead of Britain. To say nothing of his
domestic motley crew, The Wally of Waringah, The Has-been of Higgins, The
Moron of Mayo et al. Come in, your time is up. ENDS



When someone can observe the *here and now* which you fondly admit to
entirely support, perhaps you may wish to pause a bit, reconsider the
passion you have for Capitalism and the lever pullers that make it
work.(some good examples above for instance)



For your further information, I find it entirely difficult to support a
Party or a system. I know, history has a bad habit of repeating itself. I
know history teaches us that systems need re working every 50 years or so. I
know the Wall St crash will happen again - actual past due, but coming.



Last, but not least, Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes would turn in their
graves, if they discovered the entrenched speculative activities, occurring
within a wealth creating system labelled Capitalism.



Goodbye "Tchiowa". Time now for you to report back to Party HQ :-)



DN









wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked

of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to

you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with,

which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear,

at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems,

beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with

obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The

list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.



  #93  
Old January 21st, 2004, 05:21 PM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 20 Jan 2004 17:18:17 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.


Alright, start off by naming a dozen where Capitalism has succeeded.

Also, name a dozen where it is currently improving lives.(This ought
to be GOOD)

Also name a dozen where Socialism has destroyed people's lives.
  #94  
Old January 22nd, 2004, 01:12 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..
On 20 Jan 2004 17:18:17 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.

Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.


Alright, start off by naming a dozen where Capitalism has succeeded.

Also, name a dozen where it is currently improving lives.(This ought
to be GOOD)


The US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, Scotland, Ireland,
Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium.

That's a dozen that fill both criteria. Didn't even have to get to
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Also name a dozen where Socialism has destroyed people's lives.


Russia, China, Cuba, Angola, Kazakhstan, Hungary, Romania, Latvia,
Bulgaria, North Korea, Poland, Ukraine, Burma, Tajik....

Ooops. That's more than a dozen. All too easy.

Now let's make of list of countries that are converting to Capitalism
and the people are seeing an enormous benefit (they are better off now
than they were before): China, Indonesia, Thailand, Angola for
starters.

How about countries embracing Socialism and watching their economies
get killed and people hurt? Like France?

OK. Your turn. What Socialist countries have made their citizens lives
better? Your list, please?
  #95  
Old January 22nd, 2004, 01:19 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
Top posting to save time and breath ;-)


Now "Tchiowa", let's return to the original post on the 15th Jan 04 which
posed a few simple questions which were :-

Hang on a minute sport.

Socialism ?

Since when is this name tag so bad?

Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical
record.

Thank you in anticipation ENDS


And I englightened you on the merits of the preferred system. You want
now to delve into the history (which is irrelevant) because you can't
defend your apparent preferred system on its merits.

Simple questions turned into complicated issues "Tchiowa", so here for the
final time is a response general to your posts.

You obviously have a mind set which blithely sweeps history under the carpet
and *the NOW* is where all the action is.


No. I want to talk about reality and you want to embrace theory.
People can't eat theory. Ask the North Koreans.

snip

Whilst it is very convenient to slam Socialism as you observe it through a
share holders glasses ; consider what system made your preferred Capitalist
system respectable. And continues to do so !! Can you imagine, without
hindrance, from Union's, Professional Societies, Lobby groups etc., how your
Capitalist friends would behave? That my friend, is where history should
become profitable, in solving today's National ailments.


What do any of these institutions have to do with Socialism???? All of
those institutions are completely proper and appropriate under
Capitalism. In fact, Unions and lobby groups are pretty much banned
under Socialism.

Remember that the core difference between Capitalism and Socialism is
Capitalism involves private ownership of property and businessess
while Socialism involves government ownership of the same.

You keep talking about things that have nothing to do with the issue
at hand.

cap·i·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution
are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to
the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

so·cial·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the
means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by
a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
Fourth Edition

Your entire post ignored that basic principle.
  #96  
Old January 22nd, 2004, 01:30 AM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...

SNIP


Now let's make of list of countries that are converting to Capitalism
and the people are seeing an enormous benefit (they are better off now
than they were before): China, Indonesia, Thailand, Angola for
starters.

How about countries embracing Socialism and watching their economies
get killed and people hurt? Like France?

OK. Your turn. What Socialist countries have made their citizens lives
better? Your list, please?


John. Don't bother - he/she "Tchiowa", completely fails yet again, to
understand the transitory nature of international economics and politics.
God help us I say. I'm tempted to go on with this and quote Hoover pre 1929
but for now resist the temptation, for I am sure in the fullness of time it
will need to be stated on this ng

DN

DN


  #97  
Old January 22nd, 2004, 02:05 AM
Tosser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


Ooops. That's more than a dozen. All too easy.



Educate yourself.

Discover the difference between assertion and proof.



  #98  
Old January 22nd, 2004, 02:05 AM
Tosser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


No. I want to talk about reality and you want to embrace theory.
People can't eat theory. Ask the North Koreans.



Listen up, farm boy:

If the North Koreans are a bunch of walking skeletons, why such a threat?



  #100  
Old January 23rd, 2004, 12:44 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"Tosser" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


No. I want to talk about reality and you want to embrace theory.
People can't eat theory. Ask the North Koreans.



Listen up, farm boy:

If the North Koreans are a bunch of walking skeletons, why such a threat?


??? Care to try that question again? I don't recall threatening anyone.
 




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