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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal



 
 
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  #71  
Old January 18th, 2004, 12:57 AM
Tchiowa
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Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"Tosser" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"Tosser" wrote in message

...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


More people have benefited in more ways in the long run
from capitalism.


FMD

Tell that to Adidas sweat shop workers, you naive, privileged (and probably
overfed) parrot.


You mean the Adidas sweat shop workers who are making 10 times what
they were making before Adidas came to town?



Listen, you naive prat: Capitalism is a game, played by capitalists.


Which includes me.

You are not one. Neither am I.


Yes I am. Sorry that you have not chosen to participate.

If we were, we would by making money, not swapping bull**** from behind
keyboards.


I do both.

I always find it inexplicable that pawns get so fervent defending the
system that exploits them.


To paraphrase Barry White, if this is exploiting me then they can keep
on exploiting me. My family and I live quite nicely under capitalism.

Time for your reality pills, Einsten!


Time for you to leave the 60s behind.
  #73  
Old January 18th, 2004, 01:12 AM
Tchiowa
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Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
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SNIP

What does that have to do with Capitalism? Do you know what the word
means?


Ahhhhhhhhhh; Before answering that, I thought it might be worth looking at
Fascist, as spelled out in my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, which says
in part ".... representing a nationalist reaction against socialism
..........etc " Now I could read much into that, but refrain this time
round.


Interesting edit of a definition. Here's what the American Heritage
Dictionary says is Fascism: "a) A system of government marked by
centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic
controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b) A
political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system
of government."

Nothing about opposition to socialism.

The Nazis, the worst example of Fascists I can think of, were the
National Socialists.

Now to Capitalism. Loosely described, I thought, by good old Chambers
as " the economic system which generates and GIVES power to capitalists".


Try a real defintion: "An economic system in which the means of
production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and
development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of
profits gained in a free market."

All to simple and unfair a description in the pure sense of the word, to
some who practice it. What we argue about and what members on this ng are
interested in, is the defence of this *system*. I assert, with a great deal
of evidence, that Capitalism in the real and practical World, is a system
subject to abuse by the lever pullers and who suck in the political machine,
legal system and the defence system to protect them in their national and
international dealings. It is far to simple to use a single brush on your
canvas "Tchiowa" , to paint any convincing image of what you believe in.


Actually, socialism (by virtue of the necessity for central control)
is far more subject to abuse by those in power than any other system.
The pseudo-intellectuals who keep saying that Russia and China
represent abuses of socialism and communism because of their massive
central governments forget that having a massive central government is
the only way that socialism can function over the long run.

If Socialism is a zero game, then based on what was discussed earlier in
this post, Capitalism must be a minus (negative) game. Oh, why we are

about
it, how old is your system?


Old enough to have been proven successful.


I'm not so sure about it being old enough to have been proved successful. I
don't think you know the answer to the question above. So, I'll prompt you.

Shall we start in the year 1305 in France? Or we could move to Boston in
the year 1644 ? What about a century later with Dr Adam Smith at the
University of Glasgow in the 1760's? Later perhaps; 1883 the year Karl Marx
passed away and John Maynard Keynes was born? From those name and place
tags, I'm sure you could elicit something about this engine room called
Capitalism, the oil called Economics and the continual revolutions
throughout history, which, dare I say it, have been defended by army and
navy and later air forces. I've no doubt, more blood will be spilt in the
defence of 'isms.

So, when you put your hand up, or cast a vote, think a little bit about
what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.


Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.
  #75  
Old January 18th, 2004, 02:49 AM
Tosser
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Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...



Time for you to leave the 60s behind.




ROFLMAO

I thought that was where you were, McCarthy.



  #76  
Old January 18th, 2004, 06:29 AM
DN
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Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP
Fascist, as spelled out in my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, which

says
in part ".... representing a nationalist reaction against socialism
..........etc " Now I could read much into that, but refrain this time
round.


Interesting edit of a definition. Here's what the American Heritage
Dictionary says is Fascism: "a) A system of government marked by
centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic
controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b) A
political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system
of government."


I prefer an Oxford based opinion than the alternative you offer above. Not
for any anti American sentiments some may accuse me of harbouring you
understand, but because I trust the scholarship from that ancient seat of
learning to the more modern approach to meaning coming from a much younger
tradition. Actually, if one needs to be mischievous politically, quoting
Chambers definition, as a manifesto for Australian right wing parties, they
would I think, gain a few more votes !!!!!!!! (and boy oh boy, will they
need them this next election, if the last 4 Morgan Polls are to be believed)

Nothing about opposition to socialism.


That's kind of neat, *nothing about opposition to socialism* ; can I just
mention a few Socialist *Institutions* in Australia ? Wheat Board;Wool
Board; Milk Board ;Onion Board; Potato Board; Meat Board ; Egg Board etc etc
which some may claim are utterly necessary for the good governance of the
economy and the maintenance of our standard of living, even though it cuts
right across Capitalist values - choice and competition for example. Same in
the USA. Why do we have to keep traipsing to Washington because policy
protection of the farmers in the USA? AND this is Capitalism at work - like
now? (I might add in anguish, that I'm not up to speed on what marketing
authorities are still operative and which I have missed)

The Nazis, the worst example of Fascists I can think of, were the
National Socialists.


Almost agree with you on this one. I wonder though, if the original players
were of a different ilk, how they would have faired ? Although speculation
and 'what ifs' are without practicle profit, it does sharpley remind me at
least, that systems get buggered up by leaders and factions. Hence my
argument with you about Capitalism versus the rest.

SNIP

dealings. It is far to simple to use a single brush on your
canvas "Tchiowa" , to paint any convincing image of what you believe in.


Actually, socialism (by virtue of the necessity for central control)
is far more subject to abuse by those in power than any other system.
The pseudo-intellectuals who keep saying that Russia and China
represent abuses of socialism and communism because of their massive
central governments forget that having a massive central government is
the only way that socialism can function over the long run.


I am in your debt for that little homely. But you really are on shakey
ground. Have you forgot for instance a fellow called Joh who ran his State
without abuse ? There are others, but at this stage, let's not get into some
of this painful history, although if provoked, we could explore other States
over the past 50 years, who have a great deal to answer for. This also begs
the question "Tchiowa"; have you ever thought how much you are paying today,
for those giant abuses of the past? (the money has to come from somewhere
and a tax payer is the first port of call)

SNIP

Old enough to have been proven successful.


I'm not so sure about it being old enough to have been proved

successful. I
don't think you know the answer to the question above. So, I'll prompt

you.

And I'm more convinced now you do not know the answers ! Prejudice is no
substitute for facts...

Shall we start in the year 1305 in France? Or we could move to Boston

in
the year 1644 ? What about a century later with Dr Adam Smith at the
University of Glasgow in the 1760's? Later perhaps; 1883 the year Karl

Marx
passed away and John Maynard Keynes was born? From those name and place
tags, I'm sure you could elicit something about this engine room called
Capitalism, the oil called Economics and the continual revolutions
throughout history, which, dare I say it, have been defended by army and
navy and later air forces. I've no doubt, more blood will be spilt in

the
defence of 'isms.


SNIP

I notice, humbly, you either have no regard for history and/or, lack the
perception needed to tie history and economics together, to enable an
understanding of the present circumstances that exist Globally. Further
"Tchiowa", can you tell us how you can effectively plan for the future,
defend it and proclaim it, without drawing some strings of time together?

Sigh. Your call cobber

DN


  #78  
Old January 19th, 2004, 04:31 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP
Fascist, as spelled out in my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, which

says
in part ".... representing a nationalist reaction against socialism
..........etc " Now I could read much into that, but refrain this time
round.


Interesting edit of a definition. Here's what the American Heritage
Dictionary says is Fascism: "a) A system of government marked by
centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic
controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b) A
political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system
of government."


I prefer an Oxford based opinion than the alternative you offer above. Not
for any anti American sentiments some may accuse me of harbouring you
understand, but because I trust the scholarship from that ancient seat of
learning to the more modern approach to meaning coming from a much younger
tradition. Actually, if one needs to be mischievous politically, quoting
Chambers definition, as a manifesto for Australian right wing parties, they
would I think, gain a few more votes !!!!!!!! (and boy oh boy, will they
need them this next election, if the last 4 Morgan Polls are to be believed)

Nothing about opposition to socialism.


That's kind of neat, *nothing about opposition to socialism*


That's right. The definition of fascism has nothing to do with
opposition to socialism, as you tried to claim. Your somewhat silly
attempt to imply that anyone opposed to socialism must be a fascist
kind of fell on its face.

; can I just mention a few Socialist *Institutions* in Australia ?


Go ahead. But they have nothing to do with that definition. Quick
twist in the train of logic to duck out of what you said.

Wheat Board;Wool Board; Milk Board ;Onion Board; Potato Board; Meat Board ;
Egg Board etc etc which some may claim are utterly necessary for the good
governance of the economy and the maintenance of our standard of living,


Yes, "some claim" that. In the US most of these types of institutions
have been done away with. Including the "fair price" controls that
they put on products. Guess what? Prices have gone down, quality has
gone up, production vastly increased. Consumers benefitted
dramatically.

So "some" can "claim" all they'd like. They aren't necessary for good
governance. They damage choice and inhibit competition.

even though it cuts right across Capitalist values - choice and competition
for example. Same in the USA.


No, not same. Not at all.

Why do we have to keep traipsing to Washington because policy
protection of the farmers in the USA? AND this is Capitalism at work


No it is not. Protectionism is not capitalism. In fact, free trade or
protected trade have nothing to do with capitalism one way or another.

Capitalism is where property and assets are privately owned and the
owners benefit from the earnings generated by those assets and
investments are made based on that capital.

Free trade, protectionism, commodity boards, etc. have nothing
whatsoever to do with whether or not an economy is capitalist or
socialist.

Actually, socialism (by virtue of the necessity for central control)
is far more subject to abuse by those in power than any other system.
The pseudo-intellectuals who keep saying that Russia and China
represent abuses of socialism and communism because of their massive
central governments forget that having a massive central government is
the only way that socialism can function over the long run.


I am in your debt for that little homely. But you really are on shakey
ground. Have you forgot for instance a fellow called Joh who ran his State
without abuse ?


Who cares? You're ducking out of the issue.

There are others, but at this stage, let's not get into some
of this painful history, although if provoked, we could explore other States
over the past 50 years, who have a great deal to answer for. This also begs
the question "Tchiowa"; have you ever thought how much you are paying today,
for those giant abuses of the past? (the money has to come from somewhere
and a tax payer is the first port of call)


That's right, the tax payer pays all. But, again, this has nothing to
do with capitalism or socialism.
  #79  
Old January 19th, 2004, 07:50 PM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.


Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.


None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.


Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.


Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.


Interesting fantasy.



For Chist sakes, educate yourself.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.



But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.


  #80  
Old January 20th, 2004, 01:59 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.


None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.


Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.


Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.


Interesting fantasy.



For Chist sakes, educate yourself.


I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.


Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????
 




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