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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal



 
 
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  #81  
Old January 20th, 2004, 04:34 AM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
SNIP

That's kind of neat, *nothing about opposition to socialism*


That's right. The definition of fascism has nothing to do with
opposition to socialism, as you tried to claim. Your somewhat silly
attempt to imply that anyone opposed to socialism must be a fascist
kind of fell on its face.


Phewww. It must be that American dictionary that got into that organ of
yours, loosely described as a brain (all dictionaries talk the same language
on this one). I tried to claim nothing sport. It might wear with others you
argue with on this ng , but don't come the old acid with me, suitably making
assertions and using a mirror, to turn the facts and/or opinions to your own
limited experience on the subject. Without wanting to press the matter still
further, these comments will apply by default to all the other comments that
you have made on this post.

SNIP

Go ahead. But they have nothing to do with that definition. Quick
twist in the train of logic to duck out of what you said.


Bugger me; here you go again. See above.

SNIP


Why do we have to keep traipsing to Washington because policy
protection of the farmers in the USA? AND this is Capitalism at work


No it is not. Protectionism is not capitalism. In fact, free trade or
protected trade have nothing to do with capitalism one way or another.


OK; if protected trade has nothing to do with capitalism, *who* owns it then
as a tool ?

Further, *IF* protection of trade was totally abolished, all controls on
how you farm and manufacture lifted, then prey, do tell us about gluts and
famines and how you propose they are to be managed. Would you care to look
at past history for a guide, or do you have some magic potion to apply to
the wound?

SNIP

I am in your debt for that little homely. But you really are on shakey
ground. Have you forgot for instance a fellow called Joh who ran his

State
without abuse ?


Who cares? You're ducking out of the issue.


No, No a thousand times no. But suffice it to say, you have plenty to go on
above and I would respect your scholarship if you came to order and deal
with the questions yet unanswered, on the previous two posts. Let's have a
tidy debate, or go home.

DN





  #82  
Old January 20th, 2004, 04:39 AM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 19 Jan 2004 16:59:04 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.

None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.

Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.

Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.

Interesting fantasy.



For Chist sakes, educate yourself.


I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.


Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????



Let me spell it out for you.

Capitalism is SUPPOSED to subscribe to the market principle that"let
those insttutions and companies that made a mistake pay for it."

In reality, however, the capitalists always have their hand out crying
to be bailed out by the government.

For example, the Chrysler Corp. various S&Ls, big US and foreign
banks, etc.

  #83  
Old January 20th, 2004, 04:41 AM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
m...
john wrote in message


SNIP.

Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????


Watch out John, "Tchiowa" will now try and lead you up the garden path with
quotes from a "foreign" dictionary ROFL

DN


  #84  
Old January 20th, 2004, 09:56 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jan 2004 16:59:04 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.

None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.

Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.

Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.

Interesting fantasy.


For Chist sakes, educate yourself.


I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.


Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????



Let me spell it out for you.

Capitalism is SUPPOSED to subscribe to the market principle that"let
those insttutions and companies that made a mistake pay for it."


That's called "Free Market".

Does having a free market make capitalism work better? Absolutely! Are
they one and the same thing? No.
  #85  
Old January 20th, 2004, 09:59 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
m...
john wrote in message


SNIP.

Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????


Watch out John, "Tchiowa" will now try and lead you up the garden path with
quotes from a "foreign" dictionary ROFL


I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.

I think we all know why.
  #86  
Old January 20th, 2004, 12:01 PM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says, some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's, some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.

I think we all know why.


Wrong again "Tchiowa". You can't help yourself can you? Are you mixed up
reading Tarot Cards or play with glass beads or read tea cups ? Your
propensity to use throw away lines *I think we all know why* is far to glib,
although acceptable I suppose, to the Spin Doctor fraternity, the obsessed
and prejudiced. May I suggest you spend time back at books of reference
(made very easy now with the 'net) and master your brief ?


  #87  
Old January 20th, 2004, 07:59 PM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 20 Jan 2004 00:56:38 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jan 2004 16:59:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.

None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.

Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.

Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.

Interesting fantasy.


For Chist sakes, educate yourself.

I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.

Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????



Let me spell it out for you.

Capitalism is SUPPOSED to subscribe to the market principle that"let
those insttutions and companies that made a mistake pay for it."


KEY PARAGRAPHS OMITTED FROM REPLY

************************************************** *****

In reality, however, the capitalists always have their hand out crying
to be bailed out by the government.

For example, the Chrysler Corp. various S&Ls, big US and foreign
banks, etc.

************************************************** ****

Why did you omit these statements?

Didn't you have a response to theM?

That's called "Free Market".

Does having a free market make capitalism work better? Absolutely! Are
they one and the same thing? No.


  #88  
Old January 21st, 2004, 02:07 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..

KEY PARAGRAPHS OMITTED FROM REPLY

************************************************** *****

In reality, however, the capitalists always have their hand out crying
to be bailed out by the government.

For example, the Chrysler Corp. various S&Ls, big US and foreign
banks, etc.

************************************************** ****

Why did you omit these statements?


Because they are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The question was whether or not socialism had been proven a failure.

It has. You can point to abuses, misuses, greed, whatever all you
want. You refuse to fact the core issue.

Capitalism works. Socialism doesn't.

None of your examples or questions addressed that plain and simple
fact.
  #89  
Old January 21st, 2004, 02:18 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:[email protected]

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.
  #90  
Old January 21st, 2004, 08:00 AM
Tosser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.



Start typing.

With evidence.



 




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