Bombs in LOndon

"The Reids" wrote in message
news
Well you either believe a particular manifesto promise or you don't.

Er, yes, I suppose so.

As I have said a few times, you put more store in manifestos than
I do,

Not really - the big issue was the war which like I said can't be in a manifesto
(We promise to invade Iraq...).

You've said you like the local income tax and that you don't disbelieve the
LibDems promise to implement it.

I see it as just a part of the picture, you didn't offer
any comment on Kennedys alcohol problem or lack of one. Wouldn't
want a war leader on the ****.

Exactly. Nor would he. Therefore he won't go round invading foreign countries.

--
Andy

Andy Pandy wrote:
snip
Evidence has been found that the Black Sea used to
be completely separate from the Aegean, and about
9000 years ago as seas levels rose, it flooded into
the Aegean where Istanbul is now, and that this may
be the oral history that the Noah story was based on.
snip

Actually, Andy, the sequence is this:
about 15,000 years ago, the Black Sea level dropped and
it stopped overflowing into the Aegean Sea;
about 12,000 years ago, the Caspian Sea overflowed into
the Black Sea, and so the Black Sea level rose and it
resumed its own overflow into the Aegean Sea, which
continued to as late as 10,000 years ago;
about 9000 years ago, the level of the Black sea _may_
have dropped again, but certainly as the world-ocean level
rose due tothe contribution of glacial mel****er, it began
to send sal****er into the Black Sea;
about 7500 years ago, the top of the lower sal****er layer
in the Black Sea basin was close enough to the surface
(occupied by fresher water in the process of "again"
overflowing into the Aegean at that time) that marine
organisms could survive, leaving shells that were later
dated to _about_ 7500 years of age;
although the Black Sea level was already the same as the
level of the Aegean Sea by 7500 years ago, in 1997 A.D.
a couple of marine enthusiasts proclaimed that the age
of those shells indicated a sudden flooding of Mediterranean
water into the Black Sea basin about 7500 years ago that
was a good candidate for the inspiration for the Noachian
Flood myth;
immediately after that publication, several and various
marine geologists proved that that idea was bogus;
the Black Sea Flood proponents then retreated and admitted
that their idea could not hold water.

Please allow me to grace you with my standard rant on this subject:


Those who came up with the claim of catastrophic flooding
of the Black Sea have retreated from that claim.
It was based on the "sudden" appearance of salt-water shelly
organisms deep in the Black Sea, but the claimants now agree
that the "sudden" immigration of such shells just marks a change
from freshwater to salty water deep below the surface of the Black
Sea, and didn't involve any change in the level of the surface of
the Black Sea, i.e. it does not mark any "flooding" of the Black
Sea at all. And there is abundant evidence that at the time of
the supposed "BSFlood" the level of the Black Sea was the same as,
or higher than, the level of the Mediterranean Sea (which was
supposed to have broken through an imaginary dam in the Bosphorus
and overflowed into the Black sea basin). Ergo, the Black Sea was
overflowing into the Mediterranean Sea at the time of the supposed
"catastrophic flood", i.e., the water was actually flowing in the
opposite direction.
Ryan and Pitman got it backwards. At best.

ENGAGE RANT MODE

Sorry, there was no sudden flood in the Black Sea basin.
It was all a publicist's dream.

Parts of the modern Black Sea Flood claim are total
fantasy, like the imaginary dam that supposedly broke
7500 years ago. Somebody wrote that down, and suddenly
it was established as a "fact".

The trouble is, altogether too many people have the
mistaken idea that a catastrophic flood in the Black
Sea was the inspiration for the Noah's Flood story in
the Bible.
The TV programs on that topic are outdated and overly
sensational and can be safely ignored.

Sadly, you, and maybe millions of other people,
have been misled on this subject.

Alas, there was no "Noachian" Black Sea Flood, and
the science in William Ryan's and Walter Pitman's book
"Noah's Flood: the event that changed history" has in
several cases been superceded by better information that
indicates that there was no such event, and was in most
cases preceded by evidence that indicated that there was
no such event.
Ryan and Pitman set out to overturn the orthodox view
of the history of the Black Sea, but they have apparently
abandoned their hypothesis, if more recent articles
co-authored by Ryan are any indication.
The orthodox view has prevailed, subject to some recent
modifications.

There is evidence that there was an _outflow_ southward
from the Black Sea through the Bosphorus into the
Mediterranean from more than 10000 years ago
(well before Ryan and Pitman's initial 5600 BCE flood date),
continuously until the present day, though there may have
been a relatively short interruption.
And evidence from the south shore of the Black sea shows
that the level of the Black Sea was only 18 m below the
present level at the time of the supposed flood.
The more recent claim by Ryan puts the flood date at
8400 BP, or about 9000 years ago, but then the "floodwaters"
through the Bosphorus channel would have been only about
5 metres deep. 9000 years ago is when everybody else
always thought that Mediterranean sal****er first entered
the Black Sea. At about that time, the last phase of
Glacial Lake Agassiz, in central Canada, finally found an
outlet to the sea through or under the remnants of the
Laurentide Ice Sheet, and so out into the North Atlantic,
raising sea level an appreciable amount, and _perhaps_
triggering a sudden inflow of sal****er into the Black Sea
basin.
But probably not sudden or great enough to inspire a
Noachian Flood myth.
Better candidates are widespread inundation of low-lying
parts of the Persian Gulf associated with the final draining
of Glacial Lake Agassiz, and similar flooding of the Tigris-
Euphrates delta, and (most likely) simultaneous flooding of
the Tigris and Euphrates, which would have looked like a
flooding of the entire world from the viewpoint of a person
near present-day Baghdad. These candidates could each or all
have inspired the flood myth in the epic of Gilgamesh, which
predates the first known appearance of the Noachian Flood myth.

Check this out, for a layman-friendly synopsis of the
refutation:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/bs=AD=AD...D=ADeaflod.htm

On the draining of Glacial Lake Agassiz:

http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstr=AD=AD...OnceDuring.ht=
=AD=ADm=ADl


Full article:

http://www.highbeam.com/librar=AD=AD...D=3D1G1:94334=
=AD=AD7=AD3=AD5=AD&=AD=ADrefid=3Dip_...


And here's a fairly recent news item on refutation of
Ryan's and Pitman's hypothesis:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/o=AD=AD...ws/4949335.htm

BEGIN QUOTE
January 14, 2003

Scientists are seriously challenging a recent, fascinating
proposal that Noah's epic story -- setting sail with an ark
jam-full of animal couples -- was based on an actual
catastrophic flood that suddenly filled the Black Sea 7,500
years ago, forcing people to flee.

In a detailed new look at the rocks, sediments, currents
and seashells in and around the Black Sea, an international
research team pooh-poohs the Noah flood idea, arguing that
all the geologic, hydrologic and biologic signs are wrong.

Little that the earth can tell us seems to fit the Noah story,
they say. The new research takes direct aim at the work of
two Columbia University geologists -- William Ryan and Walter
Pitman -- whose proposal in 1997 ignited much new interest,
and much new research, into Middle East history and geology.

END QUOTE

Also, Ballard did not find Noah's House, and he has recently
admitted that he didn't find any evidence of human occupation
of the Black Sea continental shelf, let alone any support for
the BSFlood hypothesis.
Here is another recent news article telling you about that
(please be warned that several statements in the article
are erroneous, e.g.
"Scholars agree the Black Sea flooded when
rising world sea levels caused the Mediterranean to
burst over land and fill the then-freshwater lake."):

"Black Sea Trip Yields No Flood Conclusions"

http://www.puresupply.com/newa=AD=AD...D8458SGG3.html

There was no actual ruined building found by Ballard, but
rather just a partly rectangular outline of raised bed
on the continental shelf, that might even be
the outline of
the wheelhouse of a modern freighter.
To the northwest the outline continues, and narrows to a point.
To the southeast, the outline continues for a shorter distance,
and ends in a rounded curve.
Just what you'd expect when a sunken ship's hull is covered with
sediment.
The wood didn't necessarily contaminate the site, it might have
been part of the ship, and so accurately dates the site.
The roughly-worked stones could have been the ship's ballast.

If you wish, I can supply links to the writeups on Ballard's finds
in professional journals.

And here are a couple of scientific papers:

"Is the abrupt drowning of the Black Sea shelf at
7150 yr BP a myth?"

http://lava.tamu.edu/courses/g=AD=AD...rt/docs/Black=
=AD=ADS=ADe=ADa=ADF=ADl=AD=ADoodCritiq...


"Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to the Eastern
Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood Hypothesis"

http://www.geosociety.org/pubs=AD=AD...ay/toc0205.htm

And there's lots more, but you'd need access to scientific journals
to read it, but you could ask me for more details if you want them.
Some of the articles are available on the Web.

DISENGAGE RANT MODE

Sorry to splash water in the frying pan.=20

Daryl Krupa

Andy Pandy wrote:
"The Reids" wrote in message

10 years is a long time in politics. The issues that will decide
those elections are probably not on the radar yet.
House prices will only fall over a long period if the underlying
supply and demand changes, SE prices might be overheated at
present in the short term.


But the supply and demand is, to a large extent, caused by speculators who think
it's a good investment to buy a holiday home in places like Devon and leave it
empty for 90% of the year. Or single people/couples with no kids who think it's
a good idea to buy a 4 bedroom house. The demand for housing has increased much
faster than the population over the last few decades, due to the "property per
person" increasing.

Do you have a source for this? It's widely and plausibly claimed that
households are decreasing in average size, and this would increase
demand for uits of housing even without the epidemic of frivolous
upsizing you allege.

Des

Andy Pandy wrote:

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
...

Are you serious?? Have you read the Bible?

Actually, yes - a great deal of it. Some of it is beautiful
poetry. Some of it proposes a standard of ethics humans
would do well to accept.


Hmm..some, but a lot which we wouldn't. The Torah certainly contains the type of
behaviour, by people considered righteuos, which would be totally morally
unacceptable today. The trouble is anyone can pick and choose what bits they
like and what bits they don't and come up with any old set of morals that suits
them.

Excuse me, but do you suffer from multiple personalities?
When I began replying to these religious comments of yours,
you sounded like a Christian fundmentalist - now you seem to
be basically agreeing with me!

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:57:19 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:10:52 +0100, Andy Pandy wrote:

It sounds like you don't believe manifestos.

Does anyone?

other than Andy Pandy, who never knows when to call it a day.
--

I've never called it a day, either. What root does that come from?

Surreyman

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:52:14 +0100, "Andy Pandy"
wrote:


"The Reids" wrote in message
.. .
I don't like various things about all the parties.

Can you name just *one* policy of Labour's you prefer to the LibDems. Then
I'll
stop mythering you. Promise.

carry on mythering by all means, whatever it is.

It means annoying. It's a northern word.

It's good to know that even the English can't comprehend all English.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Martin wrote:
On 13 Jul 2005 01:20:31 -0700, wrote:



Juliana L Holm wrote:
wrote:

Why do you think that God let someone plant these bombs ?
What was he / she trying to teach us ?

I don't believe that God interferes with us here on earth, or tries to
teach us through such event. I believe people did this, and that God does
not prevent people from doing thing.

--
Julie

and when something good happens, does God take the credit ?

Jesus Saves, Moses gives credit?
--
Martin

if Juliana doesn't answer we may never know :-(

"Magda" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:42:27 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, "No Spam"

arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

...
... No one is - or was, at the time, for that matter - interested in
women's
... sexuality.
...
... Your lack if interest in women's sexuality is not representative.

Mine ?
Boy, you can't read... LOL

And girl, you can't ****! LOL. I read it where you
said that intercourse was just a man using a vagina
to masturbate with.

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
...
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
...

Are you serious?? Have you read the Bible?

Actually, yes - a great deal of it. Some of it is beautiful
poetry. Some of it proposes a standard of ethics humans
would do well to accept.


Hmm..some, but a lot which we wouldn't. The Torah certainly contains the
type of
behaviour, by people considered righteuos, which would be totally morally
unacceptable today. The trouble is anyone can pick and choose what bits they
like and what bits they don't and come up with any old set of morals that
suits
them.

Excuse me, but do you suffer from multiple personalities?
When I began replying to these religious comments of yours,
you sounded like a Christian fundmentalist - now you seem to
be basically agreeing with me!

Eh? I think you were jumping to conclusions. What have I posted that indicates
that? (I am interested in religion but am not religious).

--
Andy

wrote in message
oups.com...

[...]

Sorry to splash water in the frying pan.

Not at all, very interesting. It was only something I'd heard about once a few
years ago (probably from some TV programme). I guess the flooding of the
Tigris-Euphrates delta is a better candidate as that was closer to where the
early Genesis story was set.

--
Andy