Historian wants country called 'Siam'

Historian wants country called 'Siam'

A historian of Southeast Asian studies has launched a "Siam not
Thailand" campaigning, urging constitution drafters to revert to the name
used in the Kingdom's first constitution.


"People who have been part of our country have different ethnic,
linguistic and cultural identities. Therefore, to reflect historical fact
and the present reality, the name of the country should be Siam, not
Thailand," historian Charnvit Kasetsiri wrote in an open letter issued
yesterday.


The country's first constitution, promulgated in 1932, used Siam as
the country's name, but in 1939 Prime Minister Field Marshal Phibul changed
this to Thailand "for racist reasons", Charnvit said.


"The government deems it is appropriate following the new fashion to
change the name of our country to fit the race and the liking of the
people," said the government statement in 1939.


The name "Thailand" does not fit with historical or present facts as
there are more than 40 ethnic groups in the country, including Chinese, Tai,
Hmong, Akha, Karen, Laotians, Khmer and Mon, said Charnvit, a senior advisor
and lecturer at Thammasat University's Southeast Asian Studies Programme.


Constitution drafters discussed the issue of renaming the Kingdom in
1949 and 1968.


"To reflect the reality about races, languages and cultural
identities, the 2007 constitution should make Siam the official name of the
country in order to promote reconciliation and acceptance of ethnic and
cultural diversities, as well as for the benefit of the country and its
people," Charnvit said.


The historian asked people who agreed with his proposal to write to
the constitution drafters and concerned parties.



http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/...l_30030960.php

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¨ÑÇÒ¹ ha scritto:
Historian wants country called 'Siam'

A historian of Southeast Asian studies has launched a "Siam not
Thailand" campaigning, urging constitution drafters to revert to the name
used in the Kingdom's first constitution.

"People who have been part of our country have different ethnic,
linguistic and cultural identities. Therefore, to reflect historical fact
and the present reality, the name of the country should be Siam, not
Thailand," historian Charnvit Kasetsiri wrote in an open letter issued
yesterday.

The country's first constitution, promulgated in 1932, used Siam as
the country's name, but in 1939 Prime Minister Field Marshal Phibul changed
this to Thailand "for racist reasons", Charnvit said.

"The government deems it is appropriate following the new fashion to
change the name of our country to fit the race and the liking of the
people," said the government statement in 1939.

The name "Thailand" does not fit with historical or present facts as
there are more than 40 ethnic groups in the country, including Chinese, Tai,
Hmong, Akha, Karen, Laotians, Khmer and Mon, said Charnvit, a senior advisor
and lecturer at Thammasat University's Southeast Asian Studies Programme.

Constitution drafters discussed the issue of renaming the Kingdom in
1949 and 1968.

"To reflect the reality about races, languages and cultural
identities, the 2007 constitution should make Siam the official name of the
country in order to promote reconciliation and acceptance of ethnic and
cultural diversities, as well as for the benefit of the country and its
people," Charnvit said.

The historian asked people who agreed with his proposal to write to
the constitution drafters and concerned parties.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/...l_30030960.php


He's not the only one to think this way:

http://www.sulak-sivaraksa.org/web/about1.php

* Siam
The country of Thailand was known as Siam until 1939, when the name was
changed to a hybrid, anglicised word. For many, this name signifies the
crisis of traditional values. For this reason we use the word 'Thai' to
refer to the people, the language, and the culture, while 'Siam' is used
for the country itself.

In a book of his, "Seeds of Peace", he laments this change was made
under one of the country's worst dictatorships, and that this reason too
warrants for a change back to the old name.

- --
Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
AVVERTENZA: i messaggi inviati a "trappola" non mi arriveranno.
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Siam is a Khmer word meaning " thieves " .

the Khmer town of Siem -Reap near to Angkor Watt ,
Siem -Reap means the destruction of the thieves .

this meaning of Siam = Sayam = the barbarian thieves , is not
good for Thailand .

Thai people have migrated from the Black River in Northern Vietnam
into the central plain of the Issan , which was Khmer's territory .

the name Siam has a Khmer origine, pronounced as See-em.












On Apr 3, 9:14 am, "¨ÑÇÒ¹" wrote:
Historian wants country called 'Siam'

A historian of Southeast Asian studies has launched a "Siam not
Thailand" campaigning, urging constitution drafters to revert to the name
used in the Kingdom's first constitution.

"People who have been part of our country have different ethnic,
linguistic and cultural identities. Therefore, to reflect historical fact
and the present reality, the name of the country should be Siam, not
Thailand," historian Charnvit Kasetsiri wrote in an open letter issued
yesterday.

The country's first constitution, promulgated in 1932, used Siam as
the country's name, but in 1939 Prime Minister Field Marshal Phibul changed
this to Thailand "for racist reasons", Charnvit said.

"The government deems it is appropriate following the new fashion to
change the name of our country to fit the race and the liking of the
people," said the government statement in 1939.

The name "Thailand" does not fit with historical or present facts as
there are more than 40 ethnic groups in the country, including Chinese, Tai,
Hmong, Akha, Karen, Laotians, Khmer and Mon, said Charnvit, a senior advisor
and lecturer at Thammasat University's Southeast Asian Studies Programme.

Constitution drafters discussed the issue of renaming the Kingdom in
1949 and 1968.

"To reflect the reality about races, languages and cultural
identities, the 2007 constitution should make Siam the official name of the
country in order to promote reconciliation and acceptance of ethnic and
cultural diversities, as well as for the benefit of the country and its
people," Charnvit said.

The historian asked people who agreed with his proposal to write to
the constitution drafters and concerned parties.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/...l_30030960.php

"Alessandro Selli" wrote in message
...
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¨ÑÇÒ¹ ha scritto:
Historian wants country called 'Siam'

A historian of Southeast Asian studies has launched a "Siam not
Thailand" campaigning, urging constitution drafters to revert to the name
used in the Kingdom's first constitution.

"People who have been part of our country have different ethnic,
linguistic and cultural identities. Therefore, to reflect historical fact
and the present reality, the name of the country should be Siam, not
Thailand," historian Charnvit Kasetsiri wrote in an open letter issued
yesterday.

The country's first constitution, promulgated in 1932, used Siam as
the country's name, but in 1939 Prime Minister Field Marshal Phibul
changed
this to Thailand "for racist reasons", Charnvit said.

"The government deems it is appropriate following the new fashion
to
change the name of our country to fit the race and the liking of the
people," said the government statement in 1939.

The name "Thailand" does not fit with historical or present facts
as
there are more than 40 ethnic groups in the country, including Chinese,
Tai,
Hmong, Akha, Karen, Laotians, Khmer and Mon, said Charnvit, a senior
advisor
and lecturer at Thammasat University's Southeast Asian Studies Programme.

Constitution drafters discussed the issue of renaming the Kingdom
in
1949 and 1968.

"To reflect the reality about races, languages and cultural
identities, the 2007 constitution should make Siam the official name of
the
country in order to promote reconciliation and acceptance of ethnic and
cultural diversities, as well as for the benefit of the country and its
people," Charnvit said.

The historian asked people who agreed with his proposal to write to
the constitution drafters and concerned parties.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/...l_30030960.php


He's not the only one to think this way:

http://www.sulak-sivaraksa.org/web/about1.php

* Siam
The country of Thailand was known as Siam until 1939, when the name was
changed to a hybrid, anglicised word. For many, this name signifies the
crisis of traditional values. For this reason we use the word 'Thai' to
refer to the people, the language, and the culture, while 'Siam' is used
for the country itself.

In a book of his, "Seeds of Peace", he laments this change was made
under one of the country's worst dictatorships, and that this reason too
warrants for a change back to the old name.

Thanks for the link, Alessandro.

Changing names for a country has been applied to many countries in the
world, not only to Thailand.

Although the correct name for the country since 1939 is Thailand (Prathet
Thai or Muang Thai), Siam is used in many books and even in many, every day
conversations.

There will always be a part of the population who is fond of the name "Siam"
for their country and a part of the population who is fond with the more
Westernised name "Thailand".

IMHO, changing the name of the country with all the costs involved in a time
where lots of the population has barely the means to feed themselves
(poverty), is purely a nationalistic thing that doesn't make any substancial
changes to daily life of the biggest part of the population.

In the mean time. we can use the name "Land of Smiles" which is widely
accepted.

- --
Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
AVVERTENZA: i messaggi inviati a "trappola" non mi arriveranno.
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Mohammed the Holy Nabi ha scritto:
Siam is a Khmer word meaning " thieves " .

the Khmer town of Siem -Reap near to Angkor Watt ,
Siem -Reap means the destruction of the thieves .

this meaning of Siam = Sayam = the barbarian thieves , is not
good for Thailand .

Thai people have migrated from the Black River in Northern Vietnam
into the central plain of the Issan , which was Khmer's territory .

the name Siam has a Khmer origine, pronounced as See-em.

I beg you to provide your sources.
This is one of mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siam

The word Thai (ไทย) means "freedom" in the Thai language
and is also the name of the majority ethnic group.

What about the Thai people as an ethnic group? Were they from
Cambodia (Khmer) or Vietnamese? No, they weren't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_people

The earliest mention of the Thai, as farmers in south
China, comes from Chinese records dating back to the
sixth century BCE. These early Thai emanated out of the
Yunnan region and dispersed into the general area of
what is today Thailand. These Thai peoples arrived in
various waves and displaced the earlier native Mon and
Khmer populations as they settled the region with a
large group settling in Thailand during the Sung period
of China roughly around 960 CE.


- --
Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
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Alessandro Selli ha scritto:

[...]

The word Thai (D") means "freedom" in the Thai language

Somehow I *think* that I *might* have goofed this one... :-)
Back to the books, then.

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Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
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Mohammed the Holy Nabi ha scritto:
Siam is a Khmer word meaning " thieves " .

the Khmer town of Siem -Reap near to Angkor Watt ,
Siem -Reap means the destruction of the thieves .

this meaning of Siam = Sayam = the barbarian thieves , is not
good for Thailand .

Thai people have migrated from the Black River in Northern Vietnam
into the central plain of the Issan , which was Khmer's territory .

the name Siam has a Khmer origine, pronounced as See-em.

I beg you to provide with your sources.
This is what I found:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/...9/Siam2tai.htm

[...]
During the Sukothai Period, the Mongol Court's emissaries of
1282, 1293, and 1294 that were sent to summon the Thai King
called the Kingdom "Hsien" (G. William Skinner, Chinese
Society in Thailand: 2). Later on during the Ming Dynasty,
the Chinese emissary of 1370 called the Kingdom "Hsien-lo"
-- a combined term of "Hsien" for Sukothai and "Lo-hu" for
Lawo Kingdom, as a recognition of Ayuthaya as the power
holder of both (Skinner: 3).

Other neighbors also called the Thai Kingdom by similar names.
The Khmers, one of the most ancient of all people ever lived
in the area, refered to the Thais as Syamas. The same word
was used by them to refer to the aborigines who lived
scatteredly in the area prior to the Thais' arrival in the
13th century. The Vietnamese, the Assam, Lawa, and Mon people,
the various people of modern day Myanmar and the various
chinese groups of South China area -- all called the Thai by
the similar sounding names of sam, siam, syam, seem, same,
san, tsim, siang, syeem, seyae (Jit Poomisak, Kwam Pen Ma
Kong Kum Siam). This word itself, Siam, noone really knows
what it means or where it originated from. Some believe it's
a sanskrit word meaning black or dark gold. Some say it's
from the word "Cham," either Cham in Burma or Vietnam area.

When the European arrived, following Thailand's neighbors,
they too called the area "Siam" and the occupants "Siamese".
The Thais always have called themselves "tai" -- be it Red
Thai, Black Thai, Big Thai, Small Thai, etc.

King Mongkut (Rama IV), upon opening the country to the
Europeans, was the first to officially use "Siam" as the name
of the country. He also was the one to coin up the word "Pra
Siam Tevatirat" as a name for the national guardian spirit.
Prior to this, there existed no such concept as "nation,"
and no corresponding national guardian spirit. People were
either from, or belong to, a certain "Ban" (villages) or a
certain "Mueng" (cities or principalities); and there were
only "Phi Ban" (village guardian spirit) and "Phi Mueng"
(city guardian spirit). Thus King Mongkut was the first to
introduce the concept of "nation" or "state" to Thailand, and
the first to try to create a national identity for the
country, as a response to the encroaching Western cultures
and influences.


About the Thai as an ethnic group, were they from Cambodia (Khmer) or
from Vietnam? Doesn't seems so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_people

The earliest mention of the Thai, as farmers in south China,
comes from Chinese records dating back to the sixth century
BCE. These early Thai emanated out of the Yunnan region and
dispersed into the general area of what is today Thailand.
These Thai peoples arrived in various waves and displaced
the earlier native Mon and Khmer populations as they
settled the region with a large group settling in Thailand
during the Sung period of China roughly around 960 CE.


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Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
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my Khmer friend in Khmer school in Phnom Penh told me that Siam
meant " thieves " as referred to the Siamese .


But no proven record in Khmer languageis available .

Siem = Siam = Siamese thieves , Reap = Destruction .
so Siem Reap town in the south of Angkor Watt temple means the
destruction of the Siamese people.

I have met many Thai people along the river bank of the Balck
River in North Vietnam in 2000 .






On Apr 4, 10:27Â*pm, Alessandro Selli wrote:
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Mohammed the Holy Nabi ha scritto:

Siam is a Â*Khmer Â*word Â* meaning Â*" thieves " .

the Â*Khmer Â*town of Â*Siem -Reap Â*near to Â*Angkor Â*Watt ,
Siem -Reap Â*means the destruction of the Â*thieves .

this Â*meaning of Â*Siam = Sayam = the Â*barbarian Â*thieves , is Â*not
good Â*for Â*Thailand .

Thai people Â*have Â*migrated Â*from Â*the Black River in Northern Vietnam
into the central plain of the Issan , which was Â*Khmer's Â*territory .

the Â*name Â*Siam has a Â*Khmer Â*origine, pronounced as Â*See-em.

Â* I beg you to provide your sources.
This is one of mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siam

Â* Â* Â* Â* The word Thai (ไทย) means "freedom" in the Thai language
Â* Â* Â* Â* and is also the name of the majority ethnic group.

Â* What about the Thai people as an ethnic group? Â*Were they from
Cambodia (Khmer) or Vietnamese? Â*No, they weren't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_people

Â* Â* Â* Â* The earliest mention of the Thai, as farmers in south
Â* Â* Â* Â* China, comes from Chinese records dating back to the
Â* Â* Â* Â* sixth century BCE. These early Thai emanated out of the
Â* Â* Â* Â* Yunnan region and dispersed into the general area of
Â* Â* Â* Â* what is today Thailand. These Thai peoples arrived in
Â* Â* Â* Â* various waves and displaced the earlier native Mon and
Â* Â* Â* Â* Khmer populations as they settled the region with a
Â* Â* Â* Â* large group settling in Thailand during the Sung period
Â* Â* Â* Â* of China roughly around 960 CE.

- --
Alessandro Sellihttp://alessandro.route-add.net
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Mohammed the Holy Nabi ha scritto:
my Khmer friend in Khmer school in Phnom Penh told me that Siam
meant " thieves " as referred to the Siamese .

This could well mean that *they* use the term Siam in a disparaging
sense. But it does not mean that the word itself means anything bad.
Maybe it did sometimes in the far past to some. But what's the point if
both the documents and the memory of that past meaning are lost today?
How could it be that the siamese people accepted to be called such a low name?
In Italy today the world romanian, that is: "a person who is native of
Romania", is extensively used in a disparaging sense. They are poor
people. They emigrated from a country deeply broken and socially
destitute. They do all the most menial works available for meager wages.
They often lack the most basic schooling. So, beeing called a romanian
to many non romanians is an insult. But I don't think this is a good
reason to want to change the name to that country and its' people.

What I reported does not prove the opposite, I know. But I happened
across many cases where people where *sure* about the meaning of some
words that were found to have a completely different meaning when an
ethimological search was performed.

[...]

I have met many Thai people along the river bank of the Balck
River in North Vietnam in 2000 .

No doubt about it. People in this area of the world too have been quite
prone at moving and resettling throughout history. And cinese influences
in the Vietnamese ethnic, cultural and linguistic heritage are much more
evident than in Thailand/Siams' case.

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On Apr 5, 9:11 am, "Mohammed the Holy Nabi"
wrote:
Siam is a Khmer word meaning " thieves " .

the Khmer town of Siem -Reap near to Angkor Watt ,
Siem -Reap means the destruction of the thieves .

this meaning of Siam = Sayam = the barbarian thieves , is not
good for Thailand .

Thai people have migrated from the Black River in Northern Vietnam
into the central plain of the Issan , which was Khmer's territory .

the name Siam has a Khmer origine, pronounced as See-em.


OMG -- Did you invent this info yourself, or discover a source?

If, as you say, Siam is pronounced "See-em" in Khmer and this means
"thieves" then Siam , pronounced "Sai-am"
a. Does not mean thieves in Khmer
b. Does not mean thieves in Thai
c. Does not mean the same in Thai as in Khmer (and neither does "See-
em"!)
d. Surely would never have been the name of the country if it did, in
either form, mean thieves.