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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal



 
 
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  #91  
Old January 20th, 2004, 09:56 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jan 2004 16:59:04 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.

None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.

Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.

Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.

Interesting fantasy.


For Chist sakes, educate yourself.


I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.


Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????



Let me spell it out for you.

Capitalism is SUPPOSED to subscribe to the market principle that"let
those insttutions and companies that made a mistake pay for it."


That's called "Free Market".

Does having a free market make capitalism work better? Absolutely! Are
they one and the same thing? No.
  #92  
Old January 20th, 2004, 09:59 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
m...
john wrote in message


SNIP.

Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????


Watch out John, "Tchiowa" will now try and lead you up the garden path with
quotes from a "foreign" dictionary ROFL


I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.

I think we all know why.
  #93  
Old January 20th, 2004, 12:01 PM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:jr1Pb.19421$Wa.7578@news-

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says, some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's, some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.

I think we all know why.


Wrong again "Tchiowa". You can't help yourself can you? Are you mixed up
reading Tarot Cards or play with glass beads or read tea cups ? Your
propensity to use throw away lines *I think we all know why* is far to glib,
although acceptable I suppose, to the Spin Doctor fraternity, the obsessed
and prejudiced. May I suggest you spend time back at books of reference
(made very easy now with the 'net) and master your brief ?


  #94  
Old January 20th, 2004, 07:59 PM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 20 Jan 2004 00:56:38 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jan 2004 16:59:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jan 2004 19:22:00 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:

john wrote in message . ..
On 17 Jan 2004 16:12:04 -0800,
(Tchiowa) wrote:


snipped


what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

Compare any of your complaints to what happened to promote communism
and socialism and the abuses that have happened under those systems.

Do you know how many countires around the world that have ripped off
by the US capitalistic system.

None.

Now ask if I know how many countries tried to claim that they had been
ripped off to mask their own incompetence and corruption. Answer,
quite a few.

The US banks, in trying to influence many counties to join free trade
organizations and become fledging adherents to capitalism, have ripped
off these countries when their currency failed and their economy went
down the tube.

Utter nonsense.

Malaysia is a good example.

Perfect example of what I stated above. The "Asian Flu" economic
meltdown was entirely the result of corrupt and incompetent governance
by Asian banks and governments.

The US banks invested. The investments went down the tube.

What happened then?

The US bailed out the US banks when the US banks should have been
required to absorb their losses.

Interesting fantasy.


For Chist sakes, educate yourself.

I have. Only I deal in reality, not some ideological fantasy.

Here's capitalism at work-the IMF Bailout bailout of foreign banks in
the Far East.

But in many IMF deals with troubled countries, the international banks
escape any loss as the governments are asked to assume the private
sector's external loans.

This has crucial significance for the Asian crisis, because in
Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea, most of the existing foreign
loans were contracted by the private sector.

Indeed, a large part of the massive IMF-coordinated loans to the three
Asian countries may not even end up there. Many billions of dollars of
the "bail-out funds" will simply be transferred from the IMF to the
governments for re-channelling to the international banks to service
mostly sour private-sector loans.

But the market principle of "let those institutions that made a
mistake pay for it," so sacredly held to and insisted upon by the IMF
for local institutions, does not seem to apply to the international
banks and institutions.

Good morning!!! What does that have to do with "Capitalism"?????? Do
you know what the word means?????



Let me spell it out for you.

Capitalism is SUPPOSED to subscribe to the market principle that"let
those insttutions and companies that made a mistake pay for it."


KEY PARAGRAPHS OMITTED FROM REPLY

************************************************** *****

In reality, however, the capitalists always have their hand out crying
to be bailed out by the government.

For example, the Chrysler Corp. various S&Ls, big US and foreign
banks, etc.

************************************************** ****

Why did you omit these statements?

Didn't you have a response to theM?

That's called "Free Market".

Does having a free market make capitalism work better? Absolutely! Are
they one and the same thing? No.


  #95  
Old January 21st, 2004, 02:07 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

john wrote in message . ..

KEY PARAGRAPHS OMITTED FROM REPLY

************************************************** *****

In reality, however, the capitalists always have their hand out crying
to be bailed out by the government.

For example, the Chrysler Corp. various S&Ls, big US and foreign
banks, etc.

************************************************** ****

Why did you omit these statements?


Because they are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The question was whether or not socialism had been proven a failure.

It has. You can point to abuses, misuses, greed, whatever all you
want. You refuse to fact the core issue.

Capitalism works. Socialism doesn't.

None of your examples or questions addressed that plain and simple
fact.
  #96  
Old January 21st, 2004, 02:18 AM
Tchiowa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:jr1Pb.19421$Wa.7578@news-

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.
  #97  
Old January 21st, 2004, 08:00 AM
Tosser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal


"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.



Start typing.

With evidence.



  #99  
Old January 21st, 2004, 01:09 PM
DN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

Top posting to save time and breath ;-)


Now "Tchiowa", let's return to the original post on the 15th Jan 04 which
posed a few simple questions which were :-

Hang on a minute sport.

Socialism ?

Since when is this name tag so bad?

Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical
record.

Thank you in anticipation ENDS

Simple questions turned into complicated issues "Tchiowa", so here for the
final time is a response general to your posts.

You obviously have a mind set which blithely sweeps history under the carpet
and *the NOW* is where all the action is. Pity really, especially on this
news group, where souls with present and past involvement with the Armed
Services are concerned. In fact, it is a gross insult to those who have
defended this Nation past and present.

I think it appropriate for you to apologize to our members.

Now let me tell you this; largely because history and evolving economic
systems showed a gross failure to comprehend what was happening all around
them ( and remember well; in the past there was plenty of time to make any
decisions versus the limited time because of electronic communications etc
today) millions were to die and live in misery even before Socialism raised
its head. Think about all those Centuries of unfetted power and lust for
expansion. Do you think we should learn something from this, today? Should
we dare return to this power?

Whilst it is very convenient to slam Socialism as you observe it through a
share holders glasses ; consider what system made your preferred Capitalist
system respectable. And continues to do so !! Can you imagine, without
hindrance, from Union's, Professional Societies, Lobby groups etc., how your
Capitalist friends would behave? That my friend, is where history should
become profitable, in solving today's National ailments.

Taking an International turn now, it amazes me, constantly, how we in Oz
fail to observe that we are part of an international economic clique. For
instance, during Keating's time, when everyone was screaming about double
digit inflation in Oz., guess what ? USA , UK and uncle tom cobbley an all
had it too ! Same now with low inflation and low interest rates - it is a
world wide phenomenon, hardly understood by the man in the street and taken
advantage of politically, at the moment by Costello, for home consumption.

I will share with you an interesting part of an e-mail from a Canberra
friend, which I think you, as a rusted on Capitalist would enjoy ;-)

Quote
Australians are very patient people. We've tolerated nearly eight years of
opportunism, political appointments, lies about how well the economy is
doing, lies about 'perceived' threats (aimed to give Howard the right to
play tin soldiers with peoples' lives), a rigged referendum on The Republic,
a PM who has no qualms about sticking taxpayers for a $40,000+ weekend in a
Rome hotel. November 2003 the second worst Balance of Payments on record
(anyone remember Howard's debt truck?).



Want more? An industrial relations outlook which pitted man against
Rottweiler on Melbourne wharves in 1997, the designer of that scheme given a
nice little sinecure in London for his good work. Oh, and he had a problem
with his mobile phone. Governors-General? OK, no-one as intrinsically
nasty as 'Sir' John Kerr, but a totally inept - even if pleasant - Anglican
Bishop followed by an army autonomon. Both hand-picked by a dictator only
surpassed in his unwillingness to consult by 'Sir' Robert Menzies.



And? One Health Minister who was still a practicing medico, another who
tipped off all his mates that computer tomography hardware was going to be
taxed at a reasonable - rather than investor special - rate. Oh yes, and
Wooldridge had a problem with mobile phones too.



The message is simple to The ******* of Bennelong, and his foreign mates,
The Cretin of Crawford and the Boofhead of Britain. To say nothing of his
domestic motley crew, The Wally of Waringah, The Has-been of Higgins, The
Moron of Mayo et al. Come in, your time is up. ENDS



When someone can observe the *here and now* which you fondly admit to
entirely support, perhaps you may wish to pause a bit, reconsider the
passion you have for Capitalism and the lever pullers that make it
work.(some good examples above for instance)



For your further information, I find it entirely difficult to support a
Party or a system. I know, history has a bad habit of repeating itself. I
know history teaches us that systems need re working every 50 years or so. I
know the Wall St crash will happen again - actual past due, but coming.



Last, but not least, Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes would turn in their
graves, if they discovered the entrenched speculative activities, occurring
within a wealth creating system labelled Capitalism.



Goodbye "Tchiowa". Time now for you to report back to Party HQ :-)



DN









wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:jr1Pb.19421$Wa.7578@news-

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked

of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to

you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with,

which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear,

at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems,

beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with

obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The

list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.



  #100  
Old January 21st, 2004, 05:21 PM
john
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

On 20 Jan 2004 17:18:17 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message

news:jr1Pb.19421$Wa.7578@news-

SNIP

I note with interest that even though the original question asked was
about what was wrong with Socialism, you two have spent a lot of time
attacking Capitalism but not one word defending Socialism.
Particularly not with specific examples of successes.


Wrong again. That's expected now from "Tchiowa". All that has been asked of
you dear boy (girl?) thus far, is to share with us, the secrets known to you
about the various ism's, versus what is known by history and the players
over centuries past. You were even given a few reminders to work with, which
you failed to understand or deliberately neglected to comment on.


Why do you want to dwell on some particular twist of history? The fact
is that Socialism is a failure. Look around you. TODAY!!! You don't
need to say "Well, in 1302 blah did blah to blah". Look around you at
the world right now.

Now it is one thing to be a rusted on Capitalist or Socialist, but quite
another thing to understand its birthright and evolution. It is I fear, at
this juncture that we part company.


Who cares about the birthright and evolution? I care about the
results. And the world here and now that has proven Socialism fails
and Capitalism succeeds.

Why are you so afraid to address the world of today? Why do you dwell
on centuries old past? Are you French?

Without understanding, birthright and evolution of these systems, beliefs
are generally based on emotion and/or prejudice.


No. They are based on reality. Dwelling on such things as you are is a
method of avoiding unpleasant realities of today that disprove what to
you seems a pretty cherished (but discredited) belief.

Examples for instance being
what Dad said, what the telly shows purporting to be factual news says,


Yeah, you're right. Don't want to look at the news when you can listen
to a professor spout stories of centuries past.

some
jerks broadcasting live each day on radio talkback programmes with obvious
political agenda's,


You're saying *you* don't have an obvious political agenda?

some teaching core subjects at Uni that need attention
from one of these sides in Government and common propaganda slaves. The list
is, as I am sure everyone else but "Tchiowa" would agree, is actually
endless, with out scholarship. And that sport is the nub of the matter.


Tell me something. How many Communist/Socialist or former
Communist/Socialist countries have you lived in? Or spent significant
time in? Have you lived or worked in any of the SSRs? China? Angola?
Have you talked to people whose lives have been destroyed by Socialism
and seen their desparate desire to improve life for themselves and
their families dashed by the bureaucratic nightmare that inevitably
arises? Or is all of your knowledge based on some Berkeley professors
views as he desparately tries to avoid the 21st century (or even the
20th, for that matter)?

Close your book. Forget your theory. Join the world. The world of
reality. Look around you. Name the country where Socialism has
succeeded? I'll name you dozens where Capitalism has succeeded. Dozens
more where it is currently improving lives. And dozens where Socialism
has destroyed people's lives.


Alright, start off by naming a dozen where Capitalism has succeeded.

Also, name a dozen where it is currently improving lives.(This ought
to be GOOD)

Also name a dozen where Socialism has destroyed people's lives.
 




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