Scenic areas in England

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message guulf0$1g5$1@qmul, whisky-dave whisky-
writes

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , J. Clarke
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
I agree. However the current Gun laws we have in the UK do not make
you any safer

They do.
Just look at the stats.

So you're saying that you are safer in England after the gun laws than
before?

The situation is worse now.

In which way worse.

More people carrying and waving around guns. Most shots fired don't hit
the intended target.

But if there's more guns being waved around isn;t that because there are
more guns in circulation.


There are more guns than before the ban...

So.
There are also more people now than before the ban.

The number of guns is going up faster than the population is going up

I guess that depends on how you count.


virtually none of them legal. More people are illegally carrying guns
than in the past.

That's the problem when you make something illegal.
Make chewing gum illegal then you'll end up with far more criminals
than you did before the 'ban' on chewing gum.

You are clearly not interested in a sensible discussion

As soon as you make something illegal then you have more people breaking the
law.

LEGAL guns were banned. They were all licensed and known about. They
were removed.

So now you're claiming that there are less guns in circualtion when you ban
them ???
I'm not sure what you're proving here.


The number of illegal guns has risen dramatically.
Yes well that's obvious.

Many of the illegal
guns were never legal fro private ownership in the first place.


Yes most important from eastern Europe last I heard.

whisky-dave wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message guulf0$1g5$1@qmul, whisky-dave whisky-
writes
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , J. Clarke
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
I agree. However the current Gun laws we have in the UK do not make
you any safer
They do.
Just look at the stats.
So you're saying that you are safer in England after the gun laws than
before?
The situation is worse now.
In which way worse.
More people carrying and waving around guns. Most shots fired don't hit
the intended target.

But if there's more guns being waved around isn;t that because there are
more guns in circulation.


Maybe. But then it may be that the fewer there are, the more likely
people are to wave them around, too. Guns sitting in drawers, or locked
cases don't count in this kind of calculation.


There are more guns than before the ban...
So.
There are also more people now than before the ban.
The number of guns is going up faster than the population is going up

I guess that depends on how you count.


Huh? Does this mean a larger number have guns, or that a larger
percentage of the whole population has guns?


virtually none of them legal. More people are illegally carrying guns
than in the past.
That's the problem when you make something illegal.
Make chewing gum illegal then you'll end up with far more criminals
than you did before the 'ban' on chewing gum.
You are clearly not interested in a sensible discussion

As soon as you make something illegal then you have more people breaking the
law.


I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from, and should we consider those who were legally carrying them
before in this kind of statistic? I think not.


LEGAL guns were banned. They were all licensed and known about. They
were removed.

So now you're claiming that there are less guns in circualtion when you ban
them ???
I'm not sure what you're proving here.

The number of illegal guns has risen dramatically.
Yes well that's obvious.

Many of the illegal
guns were never legal fro private ownership in the first place.


Yes most important from eastern Europe last I heard.


If the guns were previously legal, and then made illegal, then it is
highly likely that there are now more illegal guns than before.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more guns than before,
and if there ARE, then how much good did the law making them illegal
really do?

It is true that the US state with the tightest gun laws also has the
most murders, and the state where it is legal to own, and carry a gun
without need for a permit is the state with the lowest number of
murders. Of course there are numerous other factors involved, but the
anti-gun lobby chooses to ignore such factors in favor of 'making it
simple' so that the rest of us can understand it.

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
whisky-dave wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message guulf0$1g5$1@qmul, whisky-dave whisky-
writes
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , J. Clarke
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
I agree. However the current Gun laws we have in the UK do not make
you any safer
They do.
Just look at the stats.
So you're saying that you are safer in England after the gun laws
than
before?
The situation is worse now.
In which way worse.
More people carrying and waving around guns. Most shots fired don't hit
the intended target.

But if there's more guns being waved around isn;t that because there are
more guns in circulation.


Maybe. But then it may be that the fewer there are, the more likely
people are to wave them around, too. Guns sitting in drawers, or locked
cases don't count in this kind of calculation.

They also tend not to kill or injure people.

There are more guns than before the ban...
So.
There are also more people now than before the ban.
The number of guns is going up faster than the population is going up

I guess that depends on how you count.

Huh? Does this mean a larger number have guns, or that a larger
percentage of the whole population has guns?

Well it could be both if they are gun collectors.
But it seems that most criminals aren't gun collectors any more than they
are stamp
collectors, they just want it for self defence against the other drug
dealer,
who also wants one for self defence. The more that want them the higher the
profit
in suplying them. Seems a little staraneg if we know they don;t intend to
use them.


As soon as you make something illegal then you have more people breaking
the law.


I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from, and should we consider those who were legally carrying them
before in this kind of statistic? I think not.

Sometimes you have to find out why something is illegal first.




Yes most important from eastern Europe last I heard.


If the guns were previously legal, and then made illegal, then it is
highly likely that there are now more illegal guns than before.

Yes.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more guns than before,
and if there ARE, then how much good did the law making them illegal
really do?

making them in particular illegal probably little, but that would only work
if no one was ever killed or injured with a legal gun.
We all know of the innocent man that was killed by police using a legal gun
of theirs
because they thought he had a bomb.
I know of a situation were a man was killed after someone broke into a gun
club
stole a gun and killed with it. So making those guns illegal would have
saved lives.


It is true that the US state with the tightest gun laws also has the most
murders, and the state where it is legal to own, and carry a gun without
need for a permit is the state with the lowest number of murders.
I don't think so. Last I heard was it was the way the stats are produced.
But I'm UK and I'm pretty sure we have less murders than most states in the
US.


Of course there are numerous other factors involved, but the
anti-gun lobby chooses to ignore such factors in favor of 'making it
simple' so that the rest of us can understand it.

They have their own agendas just like gun owners do.
They wish to keep their toys as much as anyone else.

In message , Ron Hunter
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message news:VenjhcMZTvEKFAQ
...
In message guulf0$1g5$1@qmul, whisky-dave whisky-
writes
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , J. Clarke
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
I agree. However the current Gun laws we have in the UK do not make
you any safer
They do.
Just look at the stats.
So you're saying that you are safer in England after the gun laws than
before?
The situation is worse now.
In which way worse.
More people carrying and waving around guns. Most shots fired don't hit
the intended target.
But if there's more guns being waved around isn;t that because there
are
more guns in circulation.


Maybe. But then it may be that the fewer there are, the more likely
people are to wave them around, too.

That is not the case.

Guns sitting in drawers, or locked cases don't count in this kind of
calculation.

That is the problem . Guns are being carried as status symbols. Not like
the old days when the officer came home from war and put it in a draw
and it is not see again till they clear the house after he dies.

There are more guns than before the ban...
So.
There are also more people now than before the ban.
The number of guns is going up faster than the population is going up
I guess that depends on how you count.

Huh? Does this mean a larger number have guns, or that a larger
percentage of the whole population has guns?

Both

virtually none of them legal. More people are illegally carrying guns
than in the past.
That's the problem when you make something illegal.
Make chewing gum illegal then you'll end up with far more criminals
than you did before the 'ban' on chewing gum.
You are clearly not interested in a sensible discussion
As soon as you make something illegal then you have more people
breaking the law.

I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from,

The police on the streets.

and should we consider those who were legally carrying them before in
this kind of statistic? I think not.

Not at all. However there are a LOT more armed police now.

LEGAL guns were banned. They were all licensed and known about. They
were removed.
So now you're claiming that there are less guns in circualtion when
you ban them ???
I'm not sure what you're proving here.

The number of illegal guns has risen dramatically.
Yes well that's obvious.

Many of the illegal
guns were never legal fro private ownership in the first place.

Yes most important from eastern Europe last I heard.

If the guns were previously legal, and then made illegal, then it is
highly likely that there are now more illegal guns than before.

How so? All the legal guns that were made illegal to own were ALL
known about. In the UK every legal gun was registered to an owner they
had a complete list of all the legal guns and who owned them and where
they were kept. None of the legal guns became illegal as they were all
handed in to the police.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more guns than before,
and if there ARE, then how much good did the law making them illegal
really do?

Nothing at all bar putting many legal businesses in the gun trade out
of business.

It is true that the US state with the tightest gun laws also has the
most murders, and the state where it is legal to own, and carry a gun
without need for a permit is the state with the lowest number of
murders.

This has nothing to do with the UK where the culture is very different.
In the UK it was legal to own but not carry a fire arm (Except to and
from the range). Using a private firearm for self defence was not in the
UK culture.

Of course there are numerous other factors involved, but the anti-gun
lobby chooses to ignore such factors in favor of 'making it simple' so
that the rest of us can understand it.

Quite so.


In much the same way that it is now very suspicious for any one to
photograph a child in the street, policeman, police station, teenagers
committing vandalism etc

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris H wrote:

In message , Ron Hunter
writes


I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from,

The police on the streets.

I don't suppose that there's any chance of seeing any evidence of that?

How on earth would the police think that anyway? They're not arresting more
people for carrying firearms. You're not saying they allow it to go on are
you?

As criminal deaths from firearms are dropping it's reasonable to suppose
that the number of firearms being carried is also dropping.


--
William Black

whisky-dave wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
whisky-dave wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message guulf0$1g5$1@qmul, whisky-dave whisky-
writes
"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , J. Clarke
writes
whisky-dave wrote:
I agree. However the current Gun laws we have in the UK do not make
you any safer
They do.
Just look at the stats.
So you're saying that you are safer in England after the gun laws
than
before?
The situation is worse now.
In which way worse.
More people carrying and waving around guns. Most shots fired don't hit
the intended target.
But if there's more guns being waved around isn;t that because there are
more guns in circulation.

Maybe. But then it may be that the fewer there are, the more likely
people are to wave them around, too. Guns sitting in drawers, or locked
cases don't count in this kind of calculation.

They also tend not to kill or injure people.

There are more guns than before the ban...
So.
There are also more people now than before the ban.
The number of guns is going up faster than the population is going up
I guess that depends on how you count.

Huh? Does this mean a larger number have guns, or that a larger
percentage of the whole population has guns?

Well it could be both if they are gun collectors.
But it seems that most criminals aren't gun collectors any more than they
are stamp
collectors, they just want it for self defence against the other drug
dealer,
who also wants one for self defence. The more that want them the higher the
profit
in suplying them. Seems a little staraneg if we know they don;t intend to
use them.


As soon as you make something illegal then you have more people breaking
the law.

I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from, and should we consider those who were legally carrying them
before in this kind of statistic? I think not.

Sometimes you have to find out why something is illegal first.




Yes most important from eastern Europe last I heard.


If the guns were previously legal, and then made illegal, then it is
highly likely that there are now more illegal guns than before.

Yes.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean there are more guns than before,
and if there ARE, then how much good did the law making them illegal
really do?

making them in particular illegal probably little, but that would only work
if no one was ever killed or injured with a legal gun.
We all know of the innocent man that was killed by police using a legal gun
of theirs
because they thought he had a bomb.
I know of a situation were a man was killed after someone broke into a gun
club
stole a gun and killed with it. So making those guns illegal would have
saved lives.



Not so. There are a lot of ways to kill someone, even when the intent
is not to use lethal force, as in the case of tasers which result in
several deaths a year, usually in the hands of police.
n
It is true that the US state with the tightest gun laws also has the most
murders, and the state where it is legal to own, and carry a gun without
need for a permit is the state with the lowest number of murders.
I don't think so. Last I heard was it was the way the stats are produced.
But I'm UK and I'm pretty sure we have less murders than most states in the
US.


Of course there are numerous other factors involved, but the
anti-gun lobby chooses to ignore such factors in favor of 'making it
simple' so that the rest of us can understand it.

They have their own agendas just like gun owners do.
They wish to keep their toys as much as anyone else.

In message , William Black
writes
Chris H wrote:

In message , Ron Hunter
writes


I wonder where the statistic about more people illegally carrying guns
came from,

The police on the streets.

I don't suppose that there's any chance of seeing any evidence of that?

Why you never put up any. I do talk to the police for various
reasons,. What are your credentials for saying otherwise?

How on earth would the police think that anyway? They're not arresting more
people for carrying firearms. You're not saying they allow it to go on are
you?

You seem completely separated from reality

As criminal deaths from firearms are dropping it's reasonable to suppose
that the number of firearms being carried is also dropping.

Most certainly not. The two do not correlate at all. You seem to have a
very simplistic view of the world.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris H wrote:




As criminal deaths from firearms are dropping it's reasonable to suppose
that the number of firearms being carried is also dropping.

Most certainly not. The two do not correlate at all. You seem to have a
very simplistic view of the world.


I have a very simple view of the world.

Fewer dead people from gunshot wounds indicates fewer guns being fired.

Fewer guns being fired seems to indicate, all else being equal, that there
are fewer guns about the place.

I'm sure you'll now demonstrate in some detail where my mistake is.

I don't think there's any evidence of the level of training available to gun
carrying crooks changing in recent years

--
William Black