Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:24:54 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:13:36 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why
do basically just Christians use them?

You live in a world of your own. Everyone celebrates
Christmas except people who have an axe to grind.

So the billions of people on Earth who don't celebrate Christmas all have
an axe to grind?

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned
and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and
the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until
all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic
is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever
before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions
may prove groundless." -Abraham Lincoln

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:02:07 +0000, PTravel wrote:


"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:38:37 -0800, "PTravel"
I haven't heard anyone get upset or offended by anyone
celebrating Christmas. The concern in Seattle was
using government funds, i.e. tax dollars paid into the
general fund, to pay for it

But if secular trees are objectionable, then any money
spent on the holiday is objectionable, then the holiday
itself is objectionable - after all the holiday must
cost the government money.

Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

It does if you keep in mind that he's a bigot who feels threatened by the
mere existence of other cultures.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Creationists criticize evolutionists for the demeaning idea
of 'coming from apes' and say that man is more noble than
that, and then have sermons where man is called a miserable
worm worthy to be burned eternally in hell."
-William Bagley

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:48:36 -0800, Tchiowa wrote:


PTravel wrote:
"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:38:37 -0800, "PTravel"
I haven't heard anyone get upset or offended by anyone
celebrating Christmas. The concern in Seattle was
using government funds, i.e. tax dollars paid into the
general fund, to pay for it

But if secular trees are objectionable, then any money
spent on the holiday is objectionable, then the holiday
itself is objectionable - after all the holiday must
cost the government money.

Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. Christmas isn't objectionable.
No one thinks so, and certainly no one has said so. What is objectionable
is government subsidization of the cultural traditions particular to one
religion, particularly to the exclusion of all others.

This is not government subsidization of *anything*!

You mean tax money being used for something isn't subsidizing it?

I did not know that.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned
and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and
the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until
all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic
is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever
before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions
may prove groundless." -Abraham Lincoln

Ray Fischer wrote in message
...
wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on
ornaments
rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even
something
really absurd like airport security...

That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a
reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places.

That's either sarcasm or appalling ignorance and jingoism.

Ah yes, ignorance and jingoism is the reason I am familiar with
perceptions such as the following:

"Minsk is drawn as the quintessential Soviet city - drab, ugly, starved
of its soul."

Sounds like Pittsburg, or Baltimore, or any one of several other
run-down US cities. Compare them with cities like Stockholm,
or Ottawa, of London.

You're one of those right-wing dupes who doesn't know anything other
than right-wing propaganda.

I can name a drab, ugly, spirit-killing place which has lots of shop windows
filled with sparkling consumer products, roads filled with modern cars and
twee little houses on twee little housing estates...... I give
you.....Milton Keynes...... nuff said.


--
Ray Fischer

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:33:21 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

James A. Donald
Judaism really does not quite fit into the American
model of separation of church and state, because
America is a nation state, and judaism is both
religion and nationalism.

flavia:
Considering that it's not like anyone is asking for
America to become Jewish or that Jews are even asking
to set up our own government

But some Jews are asking Americans to stop celebrating
Christmas,

Liar.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton

Mark K. Bilbo wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:32:00 +0000, brique wrote:


James A. Donald wrote in message
...
"James A. Donald"
Christmas is a universal celebration,
heavily celebrated by pagans such as
Chinese and Japanese. It is intended to be
universal.

"
Christmas is a Christian holiday.


And everyone I know who calls themselves Xian would be
offended at any suggestuion otherwise.

Sounds like you don't know too many Christians.

Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?

Past experience shows any concessions would swiftly be
followed by new grievances from new people. There would
be no end of it. Saying that all this guy wanted was a
menorah is like saying that all the Palestinians want is
security in their land rights and the release of
prisoners. Satisfy one grievance, and you get a dozen
more, for the real grievance is Christmas itself, as
flavia and dsharavi's remarks reveal. If Christmas is
a strictly Christian holiday, then any observance of it
whatsoever, such as everyone taking a holiday at the
same time, is a grievance and an offense.

So, not going to answer the question then James?
Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?

Nobody.

We know that, James should know that..... but as it clashes with his
reality, he is in denial......... again......


--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:17:33 -0500, Ben Kaufman wrote:

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:07:38 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

"James A. Donald"
And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as
inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the
menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a
manger at the airport,

"Sancho Panza"
That is severely uninformed. A menorah has absolutely
no religious meaning whatsoever, and there is no way
that you can show that it does.

Googling for menorah, the first hit tells me:
: : One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith
: : is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum
: : used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the
: : menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and
: : cleaned it out every morning, replacing the
: : wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the
: : cups. The illustration at left is based on
: : instructions for construction of the menorah
: : found in Exodus 25:31-40.
: :
: : It has been said that the menorah is a symbol
: : of the nation of Israel and our mission to be
: : "a light unto the nations."

It is also a nationalist symbol. Nationalism is
confrontational and excursionist. Christmas trees are
not.

If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix
instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for a
menorah to balance it, and could *still* reasonably be
rejected on the grounds that if we put up a menorah, we
would soon have to put up two hundred and seventeen
national flags.

If you compare the two you will find that the menorah for the holiday has 9
branches, not 7. Claiming they are the same would be like substituting a
different type of eagle for the bald eagle and still claiming it was our
national symbol.


Judaism really does not quite fit into the American
model of separation of church and state, because America
is a nation state, and judaism is both religion and
nationalism. Islam, of course, violently contradicts
the American model of separation of church and state,
since separation of church and state is a violation of
Islam. In consequence, the policy of treating Judaism
and Islam as if they were Christian religious sects does
not really work, and this unpleasant confrontation over
a christmas display that had been carefully purged of
the slightest religious element is an indication of
that.


This is ridiculous but frankly, I am quite surprised that you didn't look at a
much more significant example of this since Catholics far out numbers jews in
this country and they have the Catholic state, the Vatican.

You will notice we do not have this problem with
animists, ancestor worshippers, and Hindus. Those fit
into the American model of separation of Church and
State just fine. Jews and Muslims just do not, and
nothing can be done.

OK, now your true colors are coming out.

Uh huh...

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
-Woden

Mike Hunt postmaster@localhost wrote in message
. ..
brique wrote


Pagans happily celebrate the Winter Solstice regardless of what the
christianns do, as they have done since before the first christians
stumbled
blinking into the sunlight.
What anyone chooses to do on any date is their business. It is not their
business to demand everyone does the same and for the same reasons as
them,
much less deny that right to anyone else.


I think Susan's point is that Winter Solstice is NOT 'celebrated" on Dec
25.

Um, she mentioned the idea of Pagans celebrating on 22nd December..... which
is the day after the Solstice... so I pointed out that pagans already had a
Solstice celebration date and have had it for a lot longer than the
christians have had christmas. Of course, pagans don't up and scream if
non-pagans dont 'respect' their religion by pretending to join in... so
that's probably why few people tend to notice them, unless you frequent
standing stones on cold winter nights.....


For more info, check out
http://geography.about.com/cs/calend...n/a/winter.htm

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:41:16 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:02:29 -0800, Mike Hunt wrote:

Anarcissie wrote:

James A. Donald wrote:

...
We already had this business over mangers. The Supreme
court took the position that you could have a manger,
provided it was a minor part of a secular christmas
display. But then every manger was met by an unending
stream of "requests", until no one dared put out a
manger. And now that we have conceded no mangers, the
same tactic is being applied to ensure no Christmas
trees either.


What the lovers of Christmas trees need to do is get
the Christ out of Christmas and make sure the holiday
is as ostensibly pagan or secular -- irreligious -- as
it is in fact. I've already suggested that Christmas be
renamed "Consumermas". Maybe someone can come
up with something better?


Wal-mas

Might as well...

From Stan Freberg's "Green Christmas", 1958:

CHORUS: Deck the halls with advertising,
Fa la la la la la la la la.
While you can be enterprising,
Fa la la la la la la la la.
On the fourth day of Christmas,
My true love gave to me
Four bars of soap,
Three cans of peas,
Two breakfast foods,
And some toothpaste on a pear tree!
On the fifth day of Christmas,
My true love gave to me. . .

SCROOGE: Five tube-less tires!

CHORUS: Fo-ur quarts of gin,
Three ci-gars,
Two cig-ar-ettes,
And some hair tonic on a pear tree!
Chest-nuts roasting. . .

ANNOUNCER: Sayyyy, Mother, as sure as there's an X in Christmas,
you can be sure those are Tiny Tim Chestnuts roasting.
Tin-y Tim Chestnuts are frill-bodied . . . longer lasting!
This visible shell protects the nut! Now with X-K 29 added,
for people who can't roast after every meal.

GIRL TRIO: Tin-ee Tim! Tin-ee Tim! Chest-nuts all the way!

ANNOUNCER: Tin-y Tim's roast hot... like a chestnut ought! And..
.. they are
(ECHO) mild, mild, mild, mild.

CHORUS: Deck the halls with advertising,
Fa la la la la la la la la.
'Tis the time for merchandising,
Fa la la la la la la la la.
Profit never needs a reason,
Fa la la la la la la la la.
Get the money, it's the season,
Fa la la la la la la la la.

[ETC]

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

wrote in message news:X0zgh.12$Eo.1@trnddc08...

On 15-Dec-2006, Mike Hunt postmaster@localhost wrote:

brique wrote


Pagans happily celebrate the Winter Solstice regardless of what the
christianns do, as they have done since before the first christians
stumbled
blinking into the sunlight.
What anyone chooses to do on any date is their business. It is not
their
business to demand everyone does the same and for the same reasons as
them,
much less deny that right to anyone else.


I think Susan's point is that Winter Solstice is NOT 'celebrated" on Dec
25.

And my further point is that hypocrites like brique should look
into their own activities before lying about anyone else's.
But you got exactly what I was saying.

Who said it was celebrated on Dec 25th? I have refered to the Solstice but
never said that occured on Dec 25th. Come to that, 'Christmas' does not
occur 'just' on Dec 25th, it stretches from the Advent period (four weeks
prior) and continues until 12th night, when you have to have your
decorations down.
What you both seem to miss in my 'hypocrisy' is that I dont give a **** what
christians choose to do on Dec 25th or any other date, as long as they do it
at their expense, in their time and in the privacy of their homes or
meeting-places. That applies to all religions, in my view.
My criticism is the religous tendency to think that they have some right to
impose their religious standards on non-beleivers and demand public support
of their festivals whilst whinging on that those who frankly don't care who
got born in a stable, when, where or why are 'oppressing them' when they
dont put on a happy face, stuff trees and tinsel all over the place and
pretend to beleive the religious twerps nonsense. I apply that same
principle to all religions and all their festivals. Now, what is
hypocritical about that?


Susan

For more info, check out
http://geography.about.com/cs/calend...n/a/winter.htm