stay local, stay green

some approximate carbon travel "lifestyles" for family of three in
UK:-

1) 15,000 miles a year driving , inc holidays touring in Spain/France
in a Land Rover = 4.6 tonnes carbon

2) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Toyota Pious 1.0 + 1.67 =
2.67 tonnes

3) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Mini Cooper 1.0 + 2 = 3
tonnes

4) No car, one long haul holiday + 4 short flights to European cities
15 + (.75 x4) = 18 tonnes


I do not know if the carbon calculator I used allowed for the 2x to 3x
multiplier for emmissions at altitude. I have included nothing for use
of public transport in (4) or car ferries/Eurotunnel in (1).

I think these numbers show rather different answers from the public
perception. The trivial advantage of a Pious is interesting. Example
(1) is me for the next year (that was where I started from -
offsetting my own carbon).
--
Mike
"if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk,
he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down"
Warren Buffett

Mike wrote:
some approximate carbon travel "lifestyles" for family of three in
UK:-

1) 15,000 miles a year driving , inc holidays touring in Spain/France
in a Land Rover = 4.6 tonnes carbon

2) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Toyota Pious 1.0 + 1.67 =
2.67 tonnes

3) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Mini Cooper 1.0 + 2 = 3
tonnes

4) No car, one long haul holiday + 4 short flights to European cities
15 + (.75 x4) = 18 tonnes


You've forgotten, as everyone always does, about the carbon produced
when they make the things and the life time of the vehicle.

Something like 75% of all land Rovers ever produced over the past 50
years are still running.

The Prius battery pack has a maximum life of 7 years and makes as much
mess as a Land Rover being made.

You've also forgotten a couple of other little details.

For example, if someone spends a month somewhere warm in the winter
they may well fly, but they're not burning fuel keeping their house
warm while they're away.

What you're actually advocating is people spending money on bad but
expensive cars like the Prius because they look 'green' on the street
even though, in the long run, they're actually more polluting than a
long lived car like a Land Rover.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:41:06 +0100, William Black
wrote:

You've forgotten, as everyone always does, about the carbon produced
when they make the things and the life time of the vehicle.

I didn't make my own calculations, I relied on climatecare. I would
hope they include build carbon as its a third. (they provide the in
house carbon offsets for Land Rover).

Something like 75% of all land Rovers ever produced over the past 50
years are still running.

The Prius battery pack has a maximum life of 7 years and makes as much
mess as a Land Rover being made.

I agree with all that and that the LR will probably end up causing
less carbon than expected and the Pious more.

You've also forgotten a couple of other little details.

For example, if someone spends a month somewhere warm in the winter
they may well fly, but they're not burning fuel keeping their house
warm while they're away.

I have not included all sorts of things, but its clear long haul is
the biggest carbon factor by miles.

What you're actually advocating is people spending money on bad but
expensive cars like the Prius because they look 'green' on the street
even though, in the long run, they're actually more polluting than a
long lived car like a Land Rover.

I'm not advocating the Pious, I was pointing out its the same carbon
as a Mini Cooper. My personal LR, (which I will keep for 10 years) was
my baseline. My point was that many people treat 4x4 as the bogeyman,
when in fact in terms of personal choices, the worst carbon choice is
long haul or frequent flying.
--
Mike
"if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk,
he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down"
Warren Buffett

On Apr 17, 1:09*pm, "Mike" wrote:
some approximate carbon travel "lifestyles" for family of three in
UK:-

1) 15,000 miles a year driving , inc holidays touring in Spain/France
in a Land Rover = 4.6 *tonnes carbon

2) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Toyota Pious 1.0 + 1.67 =
2.67 tonnes

3) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Mini Cooper 1.0 + 2 = 3
tonnes

4) No car, one long haul holiday + 4 short flights to European cities
15 + (.75 x4) = 18 tonnes

I do not know if the carbon calculator I used allowed for the 2x to 3x
multiplier for emmissions at altitude. I have included nothing for use
of public transport in (4) or car ferries/Eurotunnel in (1).

I think these numbers show rather different answers from the public
perception. The trivial advantage of a Pious is interesting. Example
(1) is me for the next year (that was where I started from -
offsetting my own carbon).
--
Mike
"if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk,
*he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down"
Warren Buffett

if 1/2 the planet killed the other 1/2 all your problems would be
solved

"J'ai retrouvé mon chien...elle s'appelle runge"
a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
...
On Apr 17, 1:09 pm, "Mike" wrote:
some approximate carbon travel "lifestyles" for family of three in
UK:-

1) 15,000 miles a year driving , inc holidays touring in Spain/France
in a Land Rover = 4.6 tonnes carbon

2) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Toyota Pious 1.0 + 1.67 =
2.67 tonnes

3) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Mini Cooper 1.0 + 2 = 3
tonnes

4) No car, one long haul holiday + 4 short flights to European cities
15 + (.75 x4) = 18 tonnes

I do not know if the carbon calculator I used allowed for the 2x to 3x
multiplier for emmissions at altitude. I have included nothing for use
of public transport in (4) or car ferries/Eurotunnel in (1).

I think these numbers show rather different answers from the public
perception. The trivial advantage of a Pious is interesting. Example
(1) is me for the next year (that was where I started from -
offsetting my own carbon).
--
Mike
"if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk,
he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down"
Warren Buffett

if 1/2 the planet killed the other 1/2 all your problems would be
solved

Mike wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:41:06 +0100, William Black
wrote:

You've forgotten, as everyone always does, about the carbon produced
when they make the things and the life time of the vehicle.

I didn't make my own calculations, I relied on climatecare. I would
hope they include build carbon as its a third. (they provide the in
house carbon offsets for Land Rover).

I very much doubt that.

The Green Meenies seem to have a built in bias against any car that'll
work in the snow.

Something like 75% of all land Rovers ever produced over the past 50
years are still running.

The Prius battery pack has a maximum life of 7 years and makes as much
mess as a Land Rover being made.

I agree with all that and that the LR will probably end up causing
less carbon than expected and the Pious more.

I would say 'certainly' The Prius is a monster, and I seem to remember
it isn't that safe either, what with being built by that bunch of
idiots at Toyota, makers of the most dangerous cars in the world...

You've also forgotten a couple of other little details.

For example, if someone spends a month somewhere warm in the winter
they may well fly, but they're not burning fuel keeping their house
warm while they're away.

I have not included all sorts of things, but its clear long haul is
the biggest carbon factor by miles.

That's because the figures are suspect.

While a flight from Manchester to Heathrow may produce a tenth the
pollution of a flight from Heathrow to Sydney, neither is typical...

My point was that many people treat 4x4 as the bogeyman,
when in fact in terms of personal choices, the worst carbon choice is
long haul or frequent flying.

So why is it cheaper for me to fly to India than it is to heat my house?

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Mike writes:

I do not know if the carbon calculator I used allowed for the 2x to 3x
multiplier for emmissions at altitude.

Fuel burn is dramatically reduced at altitude in jet aircraft, so there is no
multiplier.

I think these numbers show rather different answers from the public
perception.

They look very suspicious.

Eighteen tons of carbon for a vacation? You can fly round-trip 1/4 way around
the world in a speedy private business jet for less than 3 tons of carbon.
That still leaves 15 tons of carbon to account for just driving around. An
extremely fuel-hungry vehicle might produce around 2 pounds of carbon per mile
(and I'm being very pessimistic here). It would have to drive round-trip 1/4
way around the world again (8300 miles each way) to account for the remaining
carbon.

Someone is exaggerating in the worst way.

tim.... writes:

But they are not equal. A disproportionate amount of fuel is used on take
off and land and there is only one of these each trip regardless of
distance, plus the long haul flight is going to be in a 350 seat aircraft
and the short haul a 100 seater so the carbon per passenger is likely to be
to be less per mile - I know the plane's heaver but not proportionately so.

The fuel burn for long flights is always less per distance traveled than the
fuel burn on short flights, in part for the reasons you state. It's simple
economy of scale.

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:09:57 +0100, Mike wrote:



2) One flight to Mallorca + 10,000 miles Toyota Pious 1.0 + 1.67 =
2.67 tonnes

Is a Toyota Pious a Popemobile?

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:01:47 +0100, William Black
wrote:

I didn't make my own calculations, I relied on climatecare. I would
hope they include build carbon as its a third. (they provide the in
house carbon offsets for Land Rover).

I very much doubt that.

LR say they offset bulid, running for 50000 and even showrooms, as to
the calculator I might ask if they include multiplier for altitude
emmissions and bulid for cars.

So why is it cheaper for me to fly to India than it is to heat my house?

you must use a lot of fuel, I couldnt fly to Brighton on my domestic
heating bill.
--
Mike
"if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk,
he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down"
Warren Buffett