Babies Caught Up in 'No-Fly' Confusion

Again, why have such a list if you don't immediately detain,
interrogate, or arrest someone that matches the list?

If the point of the list is NOT to capture these bad guys, then what's
the point of the list?

Is there anything printed these days on tickets (ie the fine print in
the contract of carriage) between airline and passenger that spells
out any contingency when a name match happens? And why can't some
alert happen at the time of booking? Why does it have to happen at
check-in?

------------------------

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050815/D8C0FUO80.html

Babies Caught Up in 'No-Fly' Confusion
Aug 15, 4:47 PM (ET)
By LESLIE MILLER

WASHINGTON (AP) - Infants have been stopped from boarding planes at
airports throughout the U.S. because their names are the same as or
similar to those of possible terrorists on the government's "no-fly
list."

It sounds like a joke, but it's not funny to parents who miss flights
while scrambling to have babies' passports and other documents faxed.

Ingrid Sanden's 1-year-old daughter was stopped in Phoenix before
boarding a flight home to Washington at Thanksgiving.

"I completely understand the war on terrorism, and I completely
understand people wanting to be safe when they fly," Sanden said. "But
focusing the target a little bit is probably a better use of
resources."

The government's lists of people who are either barred from flying or
require extra scrutiny before being allowed to board airplanes grew
markedly since the Sept. 11 attacks. Critics including the American
Civil Liberties Union say the government doesn't provide enough
information about the people on the lists, so innocent passengers can
be caught up in the security sweep if they happen to have the same
name as someone on the lists.

That can happen even if the person happens to be an infant like
Sanden's daughter. (Children under 2 don't need tickets but Sanden
purchased one for her daughter to ensure she had a seat.)

"It was bizarre," Sanden said. "I was hugely pregnant, and I was like,
'We look really threatening.'"

Sarah Zapolsky and her husband had a similar experience last month
while departing from Dulles International Airport outside Washington.
An airline ticket agent told them their 11-month-old son was on the
government list.

They were able to board their flight after ticket agents took a
half-hour to fax her son's passport and fill out paperwork.

"I understand that security is important," Zapolsky said. "But if
they're just guessing, and we have to give up our passport to prove
that our 11-month-old is not a terrorist, it's a waste of their time."

Well-known people like Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga.,
and David Nelson, who starred in the sitcom "The Adventures of Ozzie
and Harriet," also have been stopped at airports because their names
match those on the lists.

The government has sought to improve its process for checking
passengers since the Sept. 11 attacks. The first attempt was scuttled
because of fears the government would have access to too much personal
information. A new version, called Secure Flight, is being crafted.

But for now, airlines still have the duty to check passengers' names
against those supplied by the government. That job has become more
difficult - since the 2001 attacks the lists have swelled from a dozen
or so names to more than 100,000 names, according to people in the
aviation industry who are familiar with the issue. They asked not to
be identified by name because the exact number is restricted
information.

Not all those names are accompanied by biographical information that
can more closely identify the suspected terrorists. That can create
problems for people who reserve flights under such names as "T
Kennedy" or "David Nelson."

ACLU lawyer Tim Sparapani said the problem of babies stopped by the
no-fly list illustrates some of the reasons the lists don't work.

"There's no oversight over the names," Sparapani said. "We know names
are added hastily, and when you have a name-based system you don't
focus on solid intelligence leads. You focus on names that are similar
to those that might be suspicious."

The Transportation Security Administration, which administers the
lists, instructs airlines not to deny boarding to children under 12 -
or select them for extra security checks - even if their names match
those on a list.

But it happens anyway. Debby McElroy, president of the Regional
Airline Association, said: "Our information indicates it happens at
every major airport."

The TSA has a "passenger ombudsman" who will investigate individual
claims from passengers who say they are mistakenly on the lists. TSA
spokeswoman Yolanda Clark said 89 children have submitted their names
to the ombudsman. Of those, 14 are under the age of 2.

If the ombudsman determines an individual should not be stopped,
additional information on that person is included on the list so he or
she is not stopped the next time they fly.

Clark said even with the problems the lists are essential to keeping
airline passengers safe.

Fly Guy wrote:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050815/D8C0FUO80.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - Infants have been stopped from boarding planes at
airports throughout the U.S. because their names are the same as or
similar to those of possible terrorists on the government's "no-fly
list."

I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble when they fly
because the computer flags his name as being an alias for a known terrorist
called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo Baggins". They've told her that it was a
name put in for testing but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan

"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'" wrote:

:"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

:Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
:Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

Thank the ACLU for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'" wrote:

:"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

:Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
:Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

Thank the ACLU for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.


ACLU doesn't make the law.

In article ,
Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'" wrote:

:"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

:Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
:Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

Thank the ACLU for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

Thank the Bush administration for agreeing with the ACLU.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:52:51 -0400 Shawn Hirn wrote:

:In article ,
: Binyamin Dissen wrote:

: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'" wrote:

: :"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: : I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: : when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: : alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: : Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: : but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

: :Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
: :Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

: Thank the ACLU for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

:Thank the Bush administration for agreeing with the ACLU.

Wasn't aware that the courts gave him much choice.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

Binyamin Dissen wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:52:51 -0400 Shawn Hirn wrote:

:In article ,
: Binyamin Dissen wrote:

: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'" wrote:

: :"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: : I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: : when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: : alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: : Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: : but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.

: :Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
: :Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R=

: Thank the ACLU for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

:Thank the Bush administration for agreeing with the ACLU.

Wasn't aware that the courts gave him much choice.


The true silliness here is that the folks implementing the screening
aren't given any flexibility in implementation. The most amusing thing
in the article is that the parents were trying to get a fax of the kids
passport. Why did anyone care. If the kid had a different name or was
slightly older it was still to young to be a threat. A blind idiot
could see that the kid wasn't a threat. Where is some sense in the process.

No TSA has to assume that everyone in the process is an idiot and only
they can make any judgment. Thus confirming that they are complete idiots.

"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
. ..


Binyamin Dissen wrote:
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:52:51 -0400 Shawn Hirn wrote:

:In article ,
: Binyamin Dissen wrote:

: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'"
wrote:
: :"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: : I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: : when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: : alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: : Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: : but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.
: :Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
: :Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R= : Thank the ACLU
for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

:Thank the Bush administration for agreeing with the ACLU.

Wasn't aware that the courts gave him much choice.


The true silliness here is that the folks implementing the screening
aren't given any flexibility in implementation. The most amusing thing in
the article is that the parents were trying to get a fax of the kids
passport. Why did anyone care. If the kid had a different name or was
slightly older it was still to young to be a threat. A blind idiot could
see that the kid wasn't a threat. Where is some sense in the process.

No TSA has to assume that everyone in the process is an idiot and only
they can make any judgment. Thus confirming that they are complete
idiots.

The question is;
Are TSA employees incapable of using discretion, or do their Supervisors
refuse to *allow* them to use discretion?
None the less, there *are* idiots involved here.

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:41:18 GMT "Maxx." wrote:

:"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
m...

: Binyamin Dissen wrote:
: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:52:51 -0400 Shawn Hirn wrote:

: :In article ,
: : Binyamin Dissen wrote:

: : On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:10 -0400 "Rog'"
: wrote:
: : :"Miguel Cruz" wrote:
: : : I've got a friend with a 9-year-old son who always has trouble
: : : when they fly because the computer flags his name as being an
: : : alias for a known terrorist called, and I kid you not, "Bilbo
: : : Baggins". They've told her that it was a name put in for testing
: : : but don't seem to be able to get rid of it.
: : :Theoretically, they should be able to contact the Ombudsman's
: : :Office at TSA to have this issue resolved. =R= : Thank the ACLU
: for not allowing the TSA to profile for likely terrorists.

: :Thank the Bush administration for agreeing with the ACLU.

: Wasn't aware that the courts gave him much choice.

: The true silliness here is that the folks implementing the screening
: aren't given any flexibility in implementation. The most amusing thing in
: the article is that the parents were trying to get a fax of the kids
: passport. Why did anyone care. If the kid had a different name or was
: slightly older it was still to young to be a threat. A blind idiot could
: see that the kid wasn't a threat. Where is some sense in the process.

: No TSA has to assume that everyone in the process is an idiot and only
: they can make any judgment. Thus confirming that they are complete
: idiots.

:The question is;
:Are TSA employees incapable of using discretion, or do their Supervisors
:refuse to *allow* them to use discretion?

The latter.

If they use discretion, the ACLU will get on their backs about "profiling".

:None the less, there *are* idiots involved here.

No question about that.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.