Ryanair - no refund if booking cancelled

B Vaughan wrote:

I once wanted to cancel a Ryanair ticket. I gave it a try, but
realized that even changing it for another date wouldn't be cost
effective, so I told them we'd just keep the tickets. Then a few days
later, they changed the flight time. I called them immediately and
told them the new flight time was impossible for us. At this point,
they cheerfully refunded the full price of my two tickets. I guess
the chances of that happening are pretty slim, though.

Funny you say that. Different airline, but I've only flown on Bmibaby
three times, on trips from Manchester to Malaga, Barcelona and Belfast.
Each time, and I'm not kidding, the times on one portion of the trip
have been altered. To be fair, only within 30 minutes, and on each
occasion I was booking _far_ in advance- around 6 months.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:00:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nige"
wrote:
In the current age of online bookings and also online changes to the
original bookings, it would be simple to allow refunds to the same credit
card or whatever. No humans are involved - just a computer. snipped

Who do you think programs and maintains the computer systems,
processes the data? Even running a system via "just a computer"
involves cost to a company! There are tech people, access providers
to be paid, systems to be kept running, probably a system of mirroring
the network so it doesn't crash, etc., etc.

"Carole Allen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:00:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nige"
wrote:
In the current age of online bookings and also online changes to the
original bookings, it would be simple to allow refunds to the same credit
card or whatever. No humans are involved - just a computer. snipped

Who do you think programs and maintains the computer systems,
processes the data? Even running a system via "just a computer"
involves cost to a company! There are tech people, access providers
to be paid, systems to be kept running, probably a system of mirroring
the network so it doesn't crash, etc., etc.

Of course, in any business requiring an interface with the public, and
relying heavily on the internet for reservations, information and
accounting, I would anticipate that the business would already have
qualified and reliable technicians and systems. RYANAIR has been using this
technology for a long time. You must be relalistic Carole. This is not a one
man band. They already have the systems.

wrote in message
...
"tim" writes:

FR are are low cost airline. They make bugger all from most pax.

I can hardly believe this. It's their public image, sure. It's what
O'Leary says constantly. But unless you book way in advance their
prices are often up in the hundreds of [sterling] pounds.

IME you don't have to book too early. The fare structure is that
on most flights more than 50% are sold at the lowest 9.99 fare
and my experiences suggest that this is actually the case. Of
course, the August saturday flight to holiday destination
are going to be very popular are will be priced accordingly
but many of the destinations are filled by very casual "visiting
friends and relatives" type traffic and this sector is very price
sensitive as if the price is too high they just don't go.


On a couple of recent holidays via Ryanair we got chatting to other
people on the aircraft; it seemed not uncommon for them to have paid
£100-£150
per person per flight.

then more fool them then. The number of people on a flight
having paid this much is generally very small. When a price for
a RA flight goes over 60 quid each way I either choose a
different date or a different carrier.

tim

"Nige" wrote in message
...



I don't personally have any inclination to take this matter up with any
court of law. I am not clear where you get your 5 pound fee from?.

You said that you lost 5 pounds, so if the refund you get is nothing
then the fee for processing that refund must be 5 pounds.

When a
computer is used to make a booking ON LINE, and this is all automatic
including taking your money, what kind of fee is required? Anybody
booking
online with Ryanair can change the booking or the pax BUT pay additional
costs. However there is absolutely no way of getting the cost paid in
advance for Airport Passenger Duty and taxes back from them.PERIOD

There is a high fixed cost associated with processing refunds. Commercially
there is nothing wrong with a company charging this cost only to those
people that want a refund (banks do this all the time and the ombudsman
finds in their favour when they do). As only a small percentage of pax will
request a refund, so the cost per pax will be high.

EASYJET terms are clearer and different. QUOTE:
If after having made a reservation you do not fly with us, whether or not
a
refund of the fare is payable you will be entitled to claim a refund of
any
taxes or charges advised to you and payable by you in accordance with
Article 5.2, which as a consequence we have no obligation to pay to any
Government or other authority. We reserve the right to deduct a reasonable
service charge from any such refund where you fail to fly with us despite
a
flight being available.

UNQUOTE

I accept that RA's policy is not desirable, but the point is that if they
did
have the above policy written in their T&C's the amount you would receive
would still be nothing.


It is worth reading this article 11.2 carefully.

why? (it is not the one you referenced above)

Tim

"Nige" wrote in message
...

"Carole Allen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:00:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nige"
wrote:
In the current age of online bookings and also online changes to the
original bookings, it would be simple to allow refunds to the same
credit
card or whatever. No humans are involved - just a computer. snipped

Who do you think programs and maintains the computer systems,
processes the data? Even running a system via "just a computer"
involves cost to a company! There are tech people, access providers
to be paid, systems to be kept running, probably a system of mirroring
the network so it doesn't crash, etc., etc.

Of course, in any business requiring an interface with the public, and
relying heavily on the internet for reservations, information and
accounting, I would anticipate that the business would already have
qualified and reliable technicians and systems. RYANAIR has been using
this
technology for a long time. You must be relalistic Carole. This is not a
one
man band. They already have the systems.

But they would have to re-write it, to process refunds.

And then they would have to do a complete regression test of
every *other* fearture to make sure that they didn't break anything
else. This costs one very large bundle of cash and skimping on it is
often the reason that we get disasters like last week at NATS (or
was it 2 weeks ago?).

If the new feature isn't critical to your buusiness you just don't add
it.

tim

"tim" wrote in message
...

"Nige" wrote in message
...

"Carole Allen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:00:34 +0000 (UTC), "Nige"
wrote:
In the current age of online bookings and also online changes to the
original bookings, it would be simple to allow refunds to the same
credit
card or whatever. No humans are involved - just a computer. snipped

Who do you think programs and maintains the computer systems,
processes the data? Even running a system via "just a computer"
involves cost to a company! There are tech people, access providers
to be paid, systems to be kept running, probably a system of mirroring
the network so it doesn't crash, etc., etc.

Of course, in any business requiring an interface with the public, and
relying heavily on the internet for reservations, information and
accounting, I would anticipate that the business would already have
qualified and reliable technicians and systems. RYANAIR has been using
this
technology for a long time. You must be relalistic Carole. This is not a
one
man band. They already have the systems.

But they would have to re-write it, to process refunds.

And then they would have to do a complete regression test of
every *other* fearture to make sure that they didn't break anything
else. This costs one very large bundle of cash and skimping on it is
often the reason that we get disasters like last week at NATS (or
was it 2 weeks ago?).

If the new feature isn't critical to your buusiness you just don't add
it.

tim

I really find this talk about 'regression tests' bit far fetched ! At the
moment, RYANAIR has a computerised booking system that allows you to REBOOK
your flights and choose new dates then pay all the extra fees associated
with this. This is all done online without any human help.So you can change
the original booking AND PAY MORE. This is already tried and tested. So why
not introduce a new pricing structure that allows you to recoup those fees
and other costs but not the actual cheap fare, that could start at £3 or
whatever and not 0.1 in order to cover the overall costs of refunds. Come
on. It's easy.

1) Inland Revenue don't let suppliers refund taxes just because the
customer
chooses not to use the product. Duty, an entirely different concept
from
taxes, may be, under some circumstances, refunded but you need to read
the terms and conditions to find out whether it will be.
Colin Bignell

Colin,
(1)So how come Marks and Spencer give me a refund on a pair of knickers
I
bought my wife for Christmas? Or does VAT not apply to knickers? Come
on
Colin. A refund is credited back to you and that refund includes the tax
element. Plenty other suppliers of goods and services will be doing the
same thing.

A) VAT is, despite the name, a duty, administerd by HM Customs and Excise.
B) You presumably returned the knickers, rather than keeping them without
using them. M&S terms and conditions allow you to do that. Ryanair's T&C
do
not. Colin Bignell

I still do not understand how Colin says "the tax etc is non refundable".
What's the catch. If I buy a full flexible fare, is he saying that I can
never get my 'tax etc' back cos it isn't mine? That's not my experience.
Rubbish. The Marks and Spencer knickers was a 'red herring'. nothing to do
with VATMAN or Spiderman for that matter. Of course you can get your fare
back. Prove to me that this is impossible please, as I am dumbfounded.

On 2004-06-18, nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

They have lots of experience in selling tickets and can predict well in
advance how many no-shows there are likely to be on a flight. It is normal
practice to sell more tickets than there are seats, to compensate for that.

I don't think Ryanair uses overbooking. Overbooking only makes sense
if you're selling a lot of flexible tickets to people who expect to
get a seat at a moments notice. Ryanair doesn't sell to that market.

Occasionally, there are not as many no-shows as they expect, which means
they have to bump people off the flight.

The compensations Ryanair would have to offer bumped passengers, would
cost far more than selling a couple of extra 40 euro tickets, would
bring.