Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:04:42 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
If the trees are not a religious symbol, why is there
so much fervor to display them?

I am not religious, and I display them.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

Arturo Magidin wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote:


Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
eagle is to the US!:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp

I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
yanks should know who their real masters are.

That's stupid.

Oh? I bet there would be an army of zionist shysters beating down doors
if a Muslim Iman insisted on an 8' crescent and moon displayed at US
airports on Muslim religious holidays.

Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.

So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
and recognised religions, either then?

The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions;
the fold goes the other way.

Who said anything about the nazi swastika? And in some eastern
religiouns it can be either way around, not that it matters much to the
perceptive impact.


Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.

The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the
national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5
pointed star.

The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched
candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched
candelabrum.

A minor detail.



Not that it is relevant here.

It is.

A rabbi requested permission for putting
up a Hanukah display alongside the Christmas display. Rather than
allow it, the airport officials decided opening it up to a second
religion would force them to open it up to any and all religions, and
they decided they prefered to remove the Christmas display rather than
have an open forum.

I know, that's what this thread is a continuation of from other NGs.


--
================================================== ====================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
================================================== ====================

Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org

Arturo Magidin wrote:
wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
eagle is to the US!:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp

You are confused.

The Menorah, the symbol that appears in the official seal of the state
of Israel, is a seven-arm candelabra; the Hanukiyah, the "Hanuka
menorah" has a different number of arms. They are different emblems,
just like the Star of David is different from the Wiccan five-pointed
star.

A minor detail, just like people will first think "nazi" when they see
a swastika, no matter which way round it is.


Arturo Magidin

Anarcissie wrote:

Holidays of enforced jollity are all part of living a life of
quiet desperation. As the great Quentin Crisp said,
"When people are happy there is no need for festivities."

Witty, but as a serious statement about societies, incorrect and
perverse.

"Anarcissie":
Yes, that's the question. Why is it so important?

Because there is no stopping point, no possibility of
compromise. Every concession has been met by demands
for further concessions, and the net effect of all these
concessions is starting to seriously inconvenience,
aggravate and offend. We thought we had a deal, the deal
being to hide away anything with the slightest religious
connotation, and we followed that deal, and it turns out
we do not have a deal. Where do we go from here?

Maybe we need to build a big separation wall, with those
who cannot stand Christmas on one side of the wall and
those who want to celebrate Christmas on the other, and
then ethnically cleanse whoever is on the wrong side of
the wall. :-)

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

In article . com,
wrote:

Arturo Magidin wrote:

So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
and recognised religions, either then?

The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions;
the fold goes the other way.

Who said anything about the nazi swastika?

Fair enough. As I understand it, "swastika" refers to the nazi
symbol; the hindu symbol is called "shubthika" (good symbol).


Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.

The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the
national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5
pointed star.

The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched
candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched
candelabrum.

A minor detail.

Hardly a minor detail. Just like only the official emblem of the
american government must be a bald eagle, not just any kind of eagle,
so the national emblem of Israel must be a seven branched
candelabrum; a Hanukyah -must- be a nine branched candelabrum. Quite
simply, they are not the same thing. Just like the wiccan star and the
Star of David are not the same thing.

If you want to object to a Hanukyah display on some other grounds, go
ahead; we can deal with those. But claiming that it is "the official
emblem of the israeli government" is, quite simply, false.

--
================================================== ====================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
================================================== ====================

Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org

In article . com,
wrote:

Arturo Magidin wrote:
wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
eagle is to the US!:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp

You are confused.

The Menorah, the symbol that appears in the official seal of the state
of Israel, is a seven-arm candelabra; the Hanukiyah, the "Hanuka
menorah" has a different number of arms. They are different emblems,
just like the Star of David is different from the Wiccan five-pointed
star.

A minor detail, just like people will first think "nazi" when they see
a swastika, no matter which way round it is.

If that is your "argument" with regards to this, then you have just
shot yourself in the foot.

The vast majority of americans identify the candelabrum (7- or
9-branched) with Hanukah, not with the state of Israel. They call both
"menorah" (the former correclty, the latter incorrectly), and usually
misidentify a 7 branched candelabrum as a Hanukyah and think
"Hanukah". Few are aware of the difference, and the overwhelming
association is that of the holiday, not the political association
(exactly the opposite of the shubhtika, where most people will
misidentify it as political rather than religious). In any case, you
claimed that the 9-branch candelabrum -is- the "national emblem of
the "State" of Israel". And that is, quite simply, false. Explain it
away all you want now, you were still wrong.

--
================================================== ====================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
================================================== ====================

Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org

James A. Donald wrote:
"Anarcissie":
Yes, that's the question. Why is it so important?

Because there is no stopping point, no possibility of
compromise. Every concession has been met by demands
for further concessions, and the net effect of all these
concessions is starting to seriously inconvenience,
aggravate and offend. We thought we had a deal, the deal
being to hide away anything with the slightest religious
connotation, and we followed that deal, and it turns out
we do not have a deal. Where do we go from here?

Maybe we need to build a big separation wall, with those
who cannot stand Christmas on one side of the wall and
those who want to celebrate Christmas on the other, and
then ethnically cleanse whoever is on the wrong side of
the wall. :-)

As I understand it, Christmas is the winter solstice holiday (possibly
a merging of various winter solstice holidays, for example Yule) and
predates Christianity, is in fact prehistoric in origin. Christians
merely borrowed it for a while. Thus, not only is Christmas not now
exclusively Christian, it never was exclusively Christian. The point
has been raised - a valid point - that Christ was not actually born at
Christmas. That disparity is explained by the fact that the holiday
which we call Christmas predates and was borrowed by Christianity. The
holiday contains some symbols of Christian origin but also some symbols
of pre-Christian origin. Just as, every Christmas, we sing and hear
sung songs of varying ages, some of them recent, others older, others
very old, so have other traditions accrued around the day, some of them
Christian, some of them pre-Christian, some of them post-Christian.

Christmas is the product of cultural evolution. Every Christmas new
songs are concocted, but only the best stick, only the best are
repeated, and what we hear every Christmas, the songs of varying ages,
are the best songs, the surviving songs. Thus Christmas is a repository
of cultural accretions going back centuries, a repository that has been
selected and improved over time, sloughing off the inferior candidates
and keeping the superior candidates, which become part of the
traditions.

:
Better still -- buy a one-way trip to Saudi
Arabia. There are NO Xmas trees in their
airports -- or anywhere else.

"Anarcissie"
I have been told otherwise.

James A. Donald
Googling for Saudi persecution of Christians, the
first hit tells me:
: : At least eight other Filipinos arrested
: : in the police crackdown on suspected
: : Christian worshippers have reportedly
: : been transferred out of detention cells,
: : in preparation for their imminent
: : deportation later this week.

The next hit tells me:
: : Islam is the official religion of the
: : Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and all citizens
: : must be Muslims. The Government prohibits
: : the public practice of other religions.

"Anarcissie"
I'm just reporting what I've been told.

Yes, the wisdom of the tribe, one commie tells another
what he wishes was true, and the second commie tells it
back to the first commie, and after it has gone the
circle three times, they start to believe it.

Similarly with commie citations, the infamous trail of
breadcrumbs citation. One commie reports that a bunch
of businessmen came together to support Hitler, and
cites some learned commie scholar, who as evidence for
the truth of it, cites another learned commie scholar,
who in turn ...

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

"James A. Donald"
And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as
inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the
menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a
manger at the airport,

"Sancho Panza"
That is severely uninformed. A menorah has absolutely
no religious meaning whatsoever, and there is no way
that you can show that it does.

Googling for menorah, the first hit tells me:
: : One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith
: : is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum
: : used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the
: : menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and
: : cleaned it out every morning, replacing the
: : wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the
: : cups. The illustration at left is based on
: : instructions for construction of the menorah
: : found in Exodus 25:31-40.
: :
: : It has been said that the menorah is a symbol
: : of the nation of Israel and our mission to be
: : "a light unto the nations."

It is also a nationalist symbol. Nationalism is
confrontational and excursionist. Christmas trees are
not.

If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix
instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for a
menorah to balance it, and could *still* reasonably be
rejected on the grounds that if we put up a menorah, we
would soon have to put up two hundred and seventeen
national flags.

Judaism really does not quite fit into the American
model of separation of church and state, because America
is a nation state, and judaism is both religion and
nationalism. Islam, of course, violently contradicts
the American model of separation of church and state,
since separation of church and state is a violation of
Islam. In consequence, the policy of treating Judaism
and Islam as if they were Christian religious sects does
not really work, and this unpleasant confrontation over
a christmas display that had been carefully purged of
the slightest religious element is an indication of
that.

You will notice we do not have this problem with
animists, ancestor worshippers, and Hindus. Those fit
into the American model of separation of Church and
State just fine. Jews and Muslims just do not, and
nothing can be done. The problem is not that America is
Christian, for animists do not have this problem.
America is, as George Washington said "not, in any
sense, founded on the Christian religion" The problem
is that America is American and some Jews and Muslims
just will not accept that. Experience has proven that
no concession will be sufficient to make them accept
that.

The original deal proposed by the supreme court was that
you could have a manger and religious carols, provided
they were a minor element among reindeer and christmas
trees.

That settlement was agreed to, and then Kwanzaad and
Hannukked to death. Like the Palestinians, they agreed,
then they did not agree.

So the mangers were out, despite the supreme court
saying they were in.

Now we are seeing a rerun of the same game on the trees.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald