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#21
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Cuba Travel Ban
mrtravel wrote:
even banned.. I find it interesting when Americans compare minor invonviences with how things used to be in the USSR. The problem is that a regime in the USA might decide to prevent americans from travelling to any other country they decide is part of their "axis-of-evil-du-jour". It is one thing to have a state advisory advising against travel to a country, but another to use domestic laws to control your citizens while outside your own jurisdiction. Yes, there are internationally agreed "crimes" such as child prostitution where the home country of a citizen has the right to punish its own citizens for using such services outside their jurisdiction. But there are no agreed upon "crimes" associated with going to a resort , enjoy the sun, food and beach. |
#22
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Cuba Travel Ban
devil wrote:
They would watch them transfer to US bound flights. That would entail (1) US immigration personnel having access to international arrival, or (2) them having to stay outside of international arrival and then following people to US departure. If, however, the customer stops for a coffee in between, will they keep watching on the odd chance the guy who arrived from Cuba will be eventually boarding a flight to Milwaukee rather than to Calgary? Anyway, easy to work around if you are aware that they might be watching. Another option would be to overnight in Canada between flights. I know that this might sound kind of difficult to take, but in a lot of cases, it isn't as difficult as you think to pick which people are American, especially for trained people. |
#23
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Cuba Travel Ban
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote: In article , Miguel Cruz wrote: Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland, Romania, what have you). Bull****. One needed an exit visa for travel to *any* country, including Poland and Romania. An exit visa to Bulgaria might have been marginally easier to obtain than one to West Germany, but you don't really think an average Soviet citizen could get up and say ``why, I feel like going to Poland today,'' buy a ticket and go, do you? Do you know what was involved in submitting an application for a ``foreign'' (as opposed to regular domestic) passport in the USSR? Correct. A trip to Budapest or Warsaw or Sofia for the average Soviet citizen was just about as difficult to arrange as a trip to Paris or London or Tokyo, e.g. well - nigh impossible. Remember, at the time Soviet citizens had to seek permission for even *internal* travel within the USSR. If they were lucky, a Soviet citizen *might* get permission to travel to Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania (which were referred to as "our abroad") for a holiday. Travel to East Berlin/East Germany was even more heavily circumscribed for Soviet citizens. The reason? It was thought that western TV, radio, and general western influences in the DDR could "contaminate" any Soviet citizen who has less than ideologically stalwart. Sounds silly now, but it's true. Also, the Soviets were afraid for their citizens to see how much better the average person lived even in some dump like Romania or Bulgaria....they might get "ideas", ya know. Soviet propaganda at the time *constantly* hammered on the theme that citizens of the USSR had the highest standard of living in the world, bar *none*.... Soviets travelling abroad, even to "fraternal" countries, had to attend special agit - prop classes to "prepare" for their journeys abroad. No ideological slackers allowed! -- Best Greg |
#24
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Cuba Travel Ban
In article ,
Lazy Racoon wrote: The problem is that a regime in the USA might decide to prevent americans from travelling to any other country they decide is part of their "axis-of-evil-du-jour". Americans are not prevented from traveling to any country. They are prevented from spending money in some countries, just like they are prevented from trafficking in stolen property at home. Since it is not feasible to apprehend them and put in jail, criminals like Castro and his gang must at least be prevented from deriving any income from the properties they stole. Yes, there are internationally agreed "crimes" such as child prostitution where the home country of a citizen has the right to punish its own citizens for using such services outside their jurisdiction. But there are no agreed upon "crimes" associated with going to a resort , enjoy the sun, food and beach. Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach. *Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it. There are laws to prevent and punish trafficking in stolen property, and they should be enforced to punish those who spend money in Cuba. |
#25
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Cuba Travel Ban
devil wrote:
mrtravel wrote: Ritwik Bhattacharya wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: Americans who fly through Canada and the Bahamas can be observed disembarking from Cuba flights by US immgration personnel who work in those airports. What does "observed" mean? Are US immigration personnel allowed to look at the passports of disembarking people? If not, how could they ascertain someone was American? They would watch them transfer to US bound flights. That would entail (1) US immigration personnel having access to international arrival, or (2) them having to stay outside of international arrival and then following people to US departure. Not too hard. Whenever a Cuba flight lands (which isn't that often), a few people can go over to the arrivals area and eyeball a few groups that seem like they might be Americans. Then they can wander over to the US preclearance area and watch for those people. There's little cost to guessing wrong. Worst-case scenarios: either the people never show up at pre-clearance, or they do and after a couple questions or a glance at the passport it's clear they weren't in Cuba. miguel -- See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/ |
#26
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Cuba Travel Ban
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach. *Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it. How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free. |
#27
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Cuba Travel Ban
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote: Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland, Romania, what have you). Bull****. One needed an exit visa for travel to *any* country, including Poland and Romania. Fair enough - I'm pretty willing to believe that you have better info on this than my second-hand recollections. miguel -- See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/ |
#28
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Cuba Travel Ban
In article et,
Gregory Morrow wrote: Soviet citizens could freely travel to approved countries (Poland, Romania, what have you). A trip to Budapest or Warsaw or Sofia for the average Soviet citizen was just about as difficult to arrange as a trip to Paris or London or Tokyo, e.g. well - nigh impossible. This is not quite true. A trip to Paris or London or Tokyo was indeed nigh impossible for the average Soviet citizen, but some ******** like Bulgaria was conceivable... once in a blue moon, if you are active in your local Komsomol cell, and they have a spot on an organized tour, and you ardently sucked the collective dicks of your local Profkom/Partkom/Domkom/Bull****kom, and you are ideologically clean, not Jewish, etc. etc. Remember, at the time Soviet citizens had to seek permission for even *internal* travel within the USSR. If they were lucky, a Soviet citizen *might* get permission to travel to Latvia or Estonia or Lithuania (which were referred to as "our abroad") for a holiday. Not since Stalin's times. Folks could travel pretty freely within the USSR, except to ``strategically sensitive'' areas (something like half the country, including huge chunks of the Urals, Vladivostok, Sebastopol, anywhere near the capitalist border or coast like the islands in the Baltic, etc.). One could not *move* without permission, but anyone could go to Riga or Tallinn (back then known as Tallin for a vacation. Travel to East Berlin/East Germany was even more heavily circumscribed for Soviet citizens. The reason? It was thought that western TV, radio, and general western influences in the DDR could "contaminate" any Soviet citizen who has less than ideologically stalwart. But the friendships were so beautiful, and secret police made life so much better. Uniting the people, you know. Didn't that Sjoerd fella tell you about this already? Soviets travelling abroad, even to "fraternal" countries, had to attend special agit - prop classes to "prepare" for their journeys abroad. No ideological slackers allowed! Yeah, and half the group consisted of special minders who could later report that Ivan was looking at tittie magazines in a Hungarian news kiosk, and poor fellow would never ever be able to travel abroad again. |
#29
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Cuba Travel Ban
In article ,
mrtravel wrote: Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach. *Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it. How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free. Simple. Go to a legitimately owned resort. Go to Virgin Islands or Jamaica or Anguilla or Guadeloupe or wherever it is that folks go for a vacation to the Caribbean. How do you buy a TV without paying money to the thief who stole it? Buy it from a legitimate store. |
#30
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Cuba Travel Ban
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote: In article , mrtravel wrote: Which is precisely why US regulations wrt travel to Cuba do not prohibit *going* to a resort, or enjoying the sun, food and beach. *Spending money* at a Cuban resort, however, is no different from buying a used TV from a thief who is known to have stolen it. How do you go to a resort without spending money. The resorts aren't free. Simple. Go to a legitimately owned resort. Go to Virgin Islands or Jamaica or Anguilla or Guadeloupe or wherever it is that folks go for a vacation to the Caribbean. Oh, I misunderstood. I didn't know you meant by avoiding Cuba you could still go to a resort and enjoy the sun, food, and beach. How do you buy a TV without paying money to the thief who stole it? Buy it from a legitimate store. What does this have to do with Cuba and the beach? There are government owned resorts in many countries. Wouldn't the correct analogy be not to buy a TV made in China? |
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