Unreliable elections still happening in Florida, Supporters of Democracy take note

Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.

In Bay County in the Panhandle, a technical error gave Richard
Gephardt more votes than presumptive nominee John Kerry -- even though
Gephardt had dropped out six weeks earlier.

In Miami-Dade, a Herald reporter registered as having no party
affiliation was urged by a precinct staffer to vote in the Democratic
primary after the poll worker mistakenly activated the wrong ballot on
the touch-screen voting machine.

The incidents were minor, but nothing is trivial in the state that
decided the presidency by just 537 votes in 2000. After a four-year
remake of the voting system designed to shed the state's bumbling
image, the March 9 voting revealed lingering evidence that Florida
could once again find itself the center of unwanted attention.

In the Polk case, for example, officials admit they were lucky that
their inability to retrieve several illegally cast votes did not
affect the outcome as it might in a tight race.

''We were very thankful there was a 20,000-vote difference,'' said
Lori Edwards, the county's elections supervisor. ``Had there been a
closer margin we would have been very nervous.''

In January, for instance, state Rep. Ellyn Bogdanoff of Fort
Lauderdale won a special election by just 12 votes. Although state law
required a manual recount with such a slim margin, local officials
were at a loss to explain why 134 ballots were cast without votes for
any candidate -- rendering any recount futile without a true paper
record.

TOUCH SCREENS

During this month's primary, some voters across the state complained
that the touch-screen machines failed to give them access to every
race in which they were entitled to vote.

Critics say that many problems could be averted with a simple solution
for the touch-screen machines: a printed version of the computerized
ballot, which is required by new laws in California and Nevada, giving
voters the chance to confirm their selections and elections officials
a hard copy to consult if there is a close or contested count.

Florida's touch-screen systems can produce an image of every ballot
cast over the course of a day, but critics say those images are not
reviewed by the voters themselves and could easily be wrong or, worse,
fraudulent.

A bill introduced by U.S. Sen. Bob Graham calls for printers to be
added in time for the November elections, while U.S. Rep. Robert
Wexler of Boca Raton has filed a federal lawsuit demanding paper
trails for touch-screen systems.

The Bay County glitch, in which officials knew immediately that
Gephardt did not really win the most votes and were able to correct
the problem, offered further evidence that a paper trail could be
critical.

Elections officials say they are not necessarily opposed to printers
-- but fear that rushing their use would only further complicate
matters in what will already be a high-pressure election for Florida.

But the official position of the supervisor's state association is
that paper receipts are redundant.

''The [current] equipment can provide the authorities with the ability
to demonstrate the votes actually cast if a recount or some similar
issue presented itself post-election,'' according to a position paper
prepared by the association. ``The issue of creating a paper trail for
each voter is unnecessary except to eliminate the paranoia of the
critics of these systems.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supporters of Democracy may want to rethink any vacation plans until
these
officials get their act together.

JG

John,

While I certainly understand the concern here, I just can't help but think
that perhaps this post doesn't belong in the RADP group.

Rich

"john grove" wrote in message
om...
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.

In Bay County in the Panhandle, a technical error gave Richard
Gephardt more votes than presumptive nominee John Kerry -- even though
Gephardt had dropped out six weeks earlier.

In Miami-Dade, a Herald reporter registered as having no party
affiliation was urged by a precinct staffer to vote in the Democratic
primary after the poll worker mistakenly activated the wrong ballot on
the touch-screen voting machine.

The incidents were minor, but nothing is trivial in the state that
decided the presidency by just 537 votes in 2000. After a four-year
remake of the voting system designed to shed the state's bumbling
image, the March 9 voting revealed lingering evidence that Florida
could once again find itself the center of unwanted attention.

In the Polk case, for example, officials admit they were lucky that
their inability to retrieve several illegally cast votes did not
affect the outcome as it might in a tight race.

''We were very thankful there was a 20,000-vote difference,'' said
Lori Edwards, the county's elections supervisor. ``Had there been a
closer margin we would have been very nervous.''

In January, for instance, state Rep. Ellyn Bogdanoff of Fort
Lauderdale won a special election by just 12 votes. Although state law
required a manual recount with such a slim margin, local officials
were at a loss to explain why 134 ballots were cast without votes for
any candidate -- rendering any recount futile without a true paper
record.

TOUCH SCREENS

During this month's primary, some voters across the state complained
that the touch-screen machines failed to give them access to every
race in which they were entitled to vote.

Critics say that many problems could be averted with a simple solution
for the touch-screen machines: a printed version of the computerized
ballot, which is required by new laws in California and Nevada, giving
voters the chance to confirm their selections and elections officials
a hard copy to consult if there is a close or contested count.

Florida's touch-screen systems can produce an image of every ballot
cast over the course of a day, but critics say those images are not
reviewed by the voters themselves and could easily be wrong or, worse,
fraudulent.

A bill introduced by U.S. Sen. Bob Graham calls for printers to be
added in time for the November elections, while U.S. Rep. Robert
Wexler of Boca Raton has filed a federal lawsuit demanding paper
trails for touch-screen systems.

The Bay County glitch, in which officials knew immediately that
Gephardt did not really win the most votes and were able to correct
the problem, offered further evidence that a paper trail could be
critical.

Elections officials say they are not necessarily opposed to printers
-- but fear that rushing their use would only further complicate
matters in what will already be a high-pressure election for Florida.

But the official position of the supervisor's state association is
that paper receipts are redundant.

''The [current] equipment can provide the authorities with the ability
to demonstrate the votes actually cast if a recount or some similar
issue presented itself post-election,'' according to a position paper
prepared by the association. ``The issue of creating a paper trail for
each voter is unnecessary except to eliminate the paranoia of the
critics of these systems.''

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

Supporters of Democracy may want to rethink any vacation plans until
these
officials get their act together.

JG

"john grove" wrote in message
om...
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.


Only people who are residents of Florida can vote there, so your post isn't
approriate for some of the other newsgroups. Florida must solve its own
problems and outsiders can't be of any help to people in Florida on this
issue. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and mo http://keith.martin.home.att.net/

"Rich" wrote in message ...

While I certainly understand the concern here, I just can't help but think
that perhaps this post doesn't belong in the RADP group.

Which of course didn't prevent you from reposting the entire article..

Trimming posts...it's a good thing...

"alohacyberian" wrote in message ...
"john grove" wrote in message
om...
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.


Only people who are residents of Florida can vote there, so your post isn't
approriate for some of the other newsgroups. Florida must solve its own
problems and outsiders can't be of any help to people in Florida on this
issue. KM

Visitors to FL contribute tax dollars to the state, which are used in
situations like this. When visitor spending drops, local politicians will
notice.

JG

"john grove" wrote in message
m...
"alohacyberian" wrote in message
...
"john grove" wrote in message
om...
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.

Only people who are residents of Florida can vote there, so your post
isn't
approriate for some of the other newsgroups. Florida must solve its own
problems and outsiders can't be of any help to people in Florida on this
issue. KM

Visitors to FL contribute tax dollars to the state, which are used in
situations like this. When visitor spending drops, local politicians will
notice.
JG

Nevertheless, visitors can't vote in Florida. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and mo http://keith.martin.home.att.net/

"alohacyberian" wrote in message ...

Only people who are residents of Florida can vote there, so your post isn't
approriate for some of the other newsgroups. Florida must solve its own
problems and outsiders can't be of any help to people in Florida on this
issue.

Florida isn't a republic unto itself, it's part of the USA. When the
voting process screws up in a presidential election, it's a national
matter.

(john grove) wrote in message . com...
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004

ELECTION 2004
State voting worries persist
BY LESLEY CLARK AND PETER WALLSTEN


During this month's Democratic presidential primary in Florida, an
elections staffer in Polk County mistakenly gave five voters extra
ballots -- giving them the chance to vote twice.

In Bay County in the Panhandle, a technical error gave Richard
Gephardt more votes than presumptive nominee John Kerry -- even though
Gephardt had dropped out six weeks earlier.

In Miami-Dade, a Herald reporter registered as having no party
affiliation was urged by a precinct staffer to vote in the Democratic
primary after the poll worker mistakenly activated the wrong ballot on
the touch-screen voting machine.

I would never trust a touch-screen voting machine, for there is no
way to verify the results.
Here in Illinois we use a mark-sensing ballot (blacken the ovals)
which worked beautifully in the primary AND keeps the ballot so
recounts from the original ballots are possible.

Many of the touch screens are made by Diebold, and I would never
trust one of those. The CEO of Diebold announced a few weeks ago
that he would do ANYTHING to re-elect George Bush. So would you
trust machines that are manufactured and wired by this guy???
I think not.
Printing a copy of a "ballot" is no solution; if the vote is
fraudulently recorded, the printed copy will show no evidence of
tampering.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:02:22 -0800, Chris the Liberal wrote:

I would never trust a touch-screen voting machine, for there is no
way to verify the results.

Not directly, no. I agree with you 100% in that respect.

Here in Illinois we use a mark-sensing ballot (blacken the ovals)
which worked beautifully in the primary AND keeps the ballot so
recounts from the original ballots are possible.

Some counties in Florida use the optical-scan system, too. I know for a
fact that Polk did during the 2000 and 2002 elections, and if memory
serves, so did Citrus.

Many of the touch screens are made by Diebold, and I would never
trust one of those. The CEO of Diebold announced a few weeks ago
that he would do ANYTHING to re-elect George Bush. So would you
trust machines that are manufactured and wired by this guy???
I think not.

I don't know if I believe the quote (mind providing a source for that?),
but I definitely wouldn't trust their machines, given what I've heard
about their quality and their lack of protection against tampering.

Printing a copy of a "ballot" is no solution; if the vote is
fraudulently recorded, the printed copy will show no evidence of
tampering.

Distinguo. You're mixing up two separate systems.

You seem to assume that the vote is still digitally recorded. However,
some (if not most) printed-ballot systems print the actual ballot, which
must be placed in the ballot box to be counted. This system combines the
ease-of-use of touch-screen voting (which I don't entirely believe, but)
and the provability of optical-scan voting.

That being said, I prefer the optical-scan systems for price reasons and
for the intuitive-use factor. Most people can figure out how to fill in a
bubble (anyone who's taken the SAT certainly knows) but some seniors may
have trouble with the touchscreen voting machines.

--
Benjamin Geiger My real email address isn't a _spamtrap.
WDW 4/6/03 - 4/6/04: Anytime I want! Hooray being local!

"Chris the Liberal" wrote in message
om...

In Miami-Dade, a Herald reporter registered as having no party
affiliation was urged by a precinct staffer to vote in the Democratic
primary after the poll worker mistakenly activated the wrong ballot on
the touch-screen voting machine.

I would never trust a touch-screen voting machine, for there is no
way to verify the results.

Yes, the results can be verified provided the selections are printed out on a
sheet of paper for checking after balloting. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and mo http://keith.martin.home.att.net/