Driving in France

O
And everyone's favorite roundabout:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sw...Roundabout.svg

-- Larry

On 12/11/2011 9:17 AM, Tom P wrote:


That is not what I was referring to. The taxi in which I was a passenger
was approaching the intersection from the north. He needed to make a
left turn to go to the east. There were already a number of cars in the
left lane and waiting for the oncoming traffic to clear a bit in order
to make their left turns. My taxi driver swung over to the right, making
me think he was going to make a right turn and I thought he was taking
me for a more expensive ride. But his told me about this right of way
story. Makes me wonder why there were left turn and right turn lane on
the right and left respectively.

ok.. don't tell me he jumped the queue in front of all the cars queued
to turn left. That's not a traffic rule, that's taxi driver chutzpah.


Yes. That is basically what happened. He moved over to the far right
lane, making me think that he was going to make a right turn, and I knew
that we had to go to the left and spoke up. That was when he came up
with the story about the right of way, then proceeded to cut across two
lanes of traffic with an explanation about how the others had to yield
to him because he was coming from the right.

martin writes:

On 11.11.11 18:45, Doug Anderson wrote:
writes:

"Tom wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the
right hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of
a vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps
to the right and applies to all intersections where it is not
overridden by priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including
side roads and roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle
shall give way, at intersections other than those specified in
paragraph 2 of this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of
this Convention, to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to
the people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a
traffic jam.

I hope you aren't implying that isn't sensible.

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

They don't work well when there is heavy traffic and a predominant
entry point. Down stream traffic can't get into the roundabout.
You find traffic lights at the access points of some UK roundabouts.

Yes, but then why have a roundabout at all? Why not just have a
traffic light that has a long green in the dominant traffic direction
and a short green in the other direction?

I'm not asserting all intersections should have roundabouts. But if a
roundabout is appropriate in the first place, the rule should be
"traffic in the circle has the right of way."

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

That's a matter of education. According to professor Werner Brilon, big
gun in German traffic science, British drivers are able to get 70,000
cars through a roundabout per day. The Germans, new to roundabouts and
used to obey (traffic lights, in this case , at most 25,000.

Same goes for those who plan roundabouts. Apparently many have no idea
what they are doing and/or fall back into old "intersection habits".
Not to speak of those cities that hand the planning over to street
construction companies - who in turn have contracts with or are even the
same as traffic light manufacturers …

Brilon published a few papers on roundabouts (in English), see
http://www.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/verkeh...er/brilon.html
section Download about one page down.

They don't work well when there is heavy traffic and a predominant
entry point. Down stream traffic can't get into the roundabout.
You find traffic lights at the access points of some UK roundabouts.

Yes, but then why have a roundabout at all? Why not just have a
traffic light that has a long green in the dominant traffic direction
and a short green in the other direction?

Well, traffic lights don't work well when there is only little traffic.

I'd say a roundabout with lights works better than a normal roundabout
if the lights are on during rush hour, and works it works better than a
normal intersection if the lights are off during the rest of the day.

I'm not asserting all intersections should have roundabouts. But if a
roundabout is appropriate in the first place, the rule should be
"traffic in the circle has the right of way."

Exactly.

Count on martin to lengthen useless threads.

"Martin" a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
...

On 12 Nov 2011 19:18:50 -0800, Doug Anderson
wrote:

martin writes:

On 11.11.11 18:45, Doug Anderson wrote:
writes:

"Tom wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom
wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities
like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If
you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be
wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and
our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take
public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been
to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they
understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never
seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to
the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the
right hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the
right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut
over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to
explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive
(unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the
left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of
a vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps
to the right and applies to all intersections where it is not
overridden by priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including
side roads and roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle
shall give way, at intersections other than those specified in
paragraph 2 of this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of
this Convention, to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to
the people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a
traffic jam.

I hope you aren't implying that isn't sensible.

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

They don't work well when there is heavy traffic and a predominant
entry point. Down stream traffic can't get into the roundabout.
You find traffic lights at the access points of some UK roundabouts.

Yes, but then why have a roundabout at all?

because the traffic isn't continually dense.

Why not just have a
traffic light that has a long green in the dominant traffic direction
and a short green in the other direction?

because it is smarter to use sensors under the road to determine
optimum flow.


I'm not asserting all intersections should have roundabouts. But if a
roundabout is appropriate in the first place, the rule should be
"traffic in the circle has the right of way."

That is the way it is.
--

Martin

Johannes Kleese writes:

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

That's a matter of education. According to professor Werner Brilon,
big gun in German traffic science, British drivers are able to get
70,000 cars through a roundabout per day. The Germans, new to
roundabouts and used to obey (traffic lights, in this case , at most
25,000.

There certainly is an issue with education. But if the local traffic
authorities build roundabouts and then make different decisions in
different place about whether traffic on the roundabout has the
right-of-way or traffice entering the roundabout has right-of-way no
amount of education can counter the chaos.

That is what has happened in some parts of the US.

Dunno who's the cretin about the 70's in Paris, must be another american
fatso.
You guys really believe what you type ?



"Tom P" a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
...

On 11/11/2011 12:55 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 10/11/2011 2:18 PM, Tom P wrote:

If, as you say, this is law, I am left wondering why the have left turn
lanes on the left and right turn lanes on the right. If this is the way
they are supposed to drive in Paris, the left turn lane should be on the
left.

Possibly he pulled over into the entrance to a small side street. Or
just assumed that everyone else would think he was driving out of a
small side street.

No. It was a major intersection. This was major intersection with a
traffic light. There were cars in the left lane waiting to make a left
and cars in the other two lanes were going straight through..... untl
they got held up as my taxi driver cut across their lanes in order to
pull around the cars waiting to turn left. Basically, he was passing on
the right to make a left turn, cutting in front of those who appeared to
be following the rules of the road, and screwing up traffic flow in the
proces.

like I say ... taxi driver.


Between all the parked cars it's hard to see the side
streets. In any case he's been driving in Paris longer than you or I
have. Back in the 70's it was normal to drive round Paris at night
without any lights at all. Drivers would just flash their headlights at
intersections. And of course only stupid foreigners would think of
leaving the car in gear or setting the parking brake.

As I said, it helps to explain why all the cars in Paris are banged up.

gun in German traffic science, British drivers are able to get 70,000
cars through a roundabout per day. The Germans, new to roundabouts and
used to obey (traffic lights, in this case , at most 25,000.

Maybe something to do with roundabout design as much as with the
drivers.

Even though I don't know for sure I assume that these numbers are
comparable, i.e. based on the same roundabout design. The article I got
them from was about a rather busy intersection in Hamburg (this one:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.555342,9.979904&z=19 ) and if the
existing traffic lights might be replaced by a roundabout - probably, if
we were in Britain, and no, 'cause we are in Germany.

Unexperienced drivers can **** up the most simple traffic regulations.
East Germany used to have a sign with a green arrow at many traffic
lights, allowing cars to turn right on red. Started to appear in West
German cities around 2000, too.
While that arrow still works great in the east (and the same idea,
without a sign, all over North America), AFAIK most signs have been
removed in the west. Even if it was written righ below the sign "STOP,
then turn right" - people just didn't get it.

How many lanes does a German roundabout have?

Just one (with some exceptions, of course).

Apparently in the 60's most German roundabouts have been replaced by
intersections with traffic lights. The blue roundabout sign had been
removed from the sign catalogue in 1969. It came back in December 2000,
because roundabouts have been used as less expensive replacements for
traffic lights since the mid-90's.

Interesting sidenote: France has about half of the world's roundabouts,
some 20,000.

On 14.11.11 10:40, Johannes Kleese wrote:
gun in German traffic science, British drivers are able to get 70,000
cars through a roundabout per day. The Germans, new to roundabouts and
used to obey (traffic lights, in this case , at most 25,000.

Maybe something to do with roundabout design as much as with the
drivers.

Even though I don't know for sure I assume that these numbers are
comparable, i.e. based on the same roundabout design. The article I got
them from was about a rather busy intersection in Hamburg (this one:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.555342,9.979904&z=19 ) and if the
existing traffic lights might be replaced by a roundabout - probably, if
we were in Britain, and no, 'cause we are in Germany.

Unexperienced drivers can **** up the most simple traffic regulations.
East Germany used to have a sign with a green arrow at many traffic
lights, allowing cars to turn right on red. Started to appear in West
German cities around 2000, too.
While that arrow still works great in the east (and the same idea,
without a sign, all over North America), AFAIK most signs have been
removed in the west. Even if it was written righ below the sign "STOP,
then turn right" - people just didn't get it.

How many lanes does a German roundabout have?

Most UK roundabouts have more than one lane, unless they are a cheapo
white disk of paint in the middle of the junction.
Some Dutch roundabouts have two lanes and acres of white lines & arrows
to guide drivers into the correct lane. Nearly all Dutch roundabouts
have a high centres covered in plants which obscures your view of
upstream traffic. It's not unusual to find that trucks can't pass around
a Dutch roundabout when it is new. It shouldn't be rocket science to
check the design before the roundabout is constructed.


Just one (with some exceptions, of course).

Apparently in the 60's most German roundabouts have been replaced by
intersections with traffic lights. The blue roundabout sign had been
removed from the sign catalogue in 1969. It came back in December 2000,
because roundabouts have been used as less expensive replacements for
traffic lights since the mid-90's.

Interesting sidenote: France has about half of the world's roundabouts,
some 20,000.

The local authority where I live is trying to compete with that number.
Each roundabout costs about €300,000.

On 31 Oct 2011 13:12:16 -0800, Doug Anderson
wrote:
I don't know what Paris is like to drive around in first-hand, but
if
I wanted to compare with another large European capital city: I'd
rather be driving around Berlin than Paris or Rome or London at rush
hour.

I agree (though London is mainly due to driving on the left). Also
parking is a major issue in Paris.


Also, for me, my French is adequate for touristic purposes, but it
is
slow and I'm not especially familiar with traffic patterns and
signs.

Traffic signs will be using standard international symbols, so don't
worry about that.