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#101
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America travel pointers
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:01:12 +0200, B
wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:56:59 -0700, Hatunen wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:23:19 +0200, B wrote: On 21 Aug 2006 11:07:22 -0700, "Iceman" wrote: without mass transit you can't have higher density. This statement makes no sense at all. Cities have been very densely populated for thousands of years. In fact, without high density, mass transit tends to be prohibitively expensive, but the converse is not true at all. Which came first, the density or the transit? The density of course, but that certainly doesn't contradict what I said. The low population density of US urban areas is caused by the relative abundance of cheap land in the peripheries of cities, combined with cheap fuel. Which urban areas? How much cheap land lies with 120 km of Manhattan Island or the Chicago Loop? Or San Francisco? Very little. And the only suburban growth is even further out. People are now commuting to New York from the Scranton (PA) vicinity, where there still is some cheap(er) land. I can't see how the lack of mass transit could have more than a small effect on modern population density. The arrival of mass transit in the early 20th century actually encouraged the development of bedroom suburbs. Mass transit arrived well before the 1920s; there were street railways by the late 19th century. It was rapid transit, i.e., commuter services that arrived in the 1920s. Leading this movement were the Van Swerigen brothers who bought up the land they would call Shaker Heights near Cleveland and then built a rapid transit system connecting Shaker Heights with downtown Cleveland. I was trying to refute the statement that the *lack* of mass transit *caused* population dispersion. Nothing you say contradicts anything I said; It wasn't meant to. indeed much of what you say supports it. for the most part, it was meant to. Unless you're just nitpicking on the details. In that case, let me be more precise: "the arrival of mass transit to peripheral areas, etc." You are confounding mass transit with commuter mass transit, e.g., the U-Bahn with the S-Bahn. ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#102
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America travel pointers
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:03:04 GMT, Greg Guarino
wrote: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:01:13 +0200, B wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:10:17 GMT, Greg Guarino wrote: My wife and I took two train vacations in Europe, using Eurailpasses and booking trains as we went along. It was a lot of fun and I recommend it but there was some variability in the service. In Switzerland you'd better have your hind quarters on the train by the posted departure time; they are relentlessly punctual. In Italy we found quite a bit more um, *elasticity* in the schedule. We also found a strong entrepreneurial spirit among the porters on the Italian trains. Liquor and food were stocked in the porter's room and available for sale. ... Food is for sale on trains in Italy not because of entrepeneurial spirit, but because it is a service offered. This was quite some time ago and maybe things have changed, but the situation I was describing bore no resemblance to an official service. It must have been quite some time, as I've been travelling in Italy for over 10 years, and I've never seen anything.remotely similar. The porter even showed me his little compartment, with cigarettes, liquor and sandwiches (possibly made by his wife) nestled in amongst the other random items stowed on the shelves. The passengers are concentrated because it's less work for the staff that way, The particular trip that comes to mind (although it wasn't the only one) was an overnight train from Paris to Rome, so I suppose it was actually an Intercity train, but the staff people we met were Italian. Many if not most of the couchette compartments were labeled "Prenotato", but were empty. The few that were labeled "Non-Prenotato" (not reserved), like our designated compartment, had the full complement of six passengers. In our case, it was seven, including a small child on his mother's lap playing with a loud toy. There was no way to get those six and a half people plus all their luggage into that compartment, at least as it was configured at the time. Once they folded out the bunks for the night it might have been possible to jam it all in. As it was, a young Swedish couple left their large hiking packs in the corridor. The Italian mother had some of her prodigious collection of baggage out there too. I can't remember if the train picked up passengers along the way, it didn't make many stops. In any case, the train was not nearly full at any point in the fifteen-hour ride. and any change in a reserveration after you board the train entails a service charge. Unless it was official railway policy to have the passenger and the porter negotiate amount of the "service charge" in the corridor, to be paid in cash on the spot, with no receipt or hint of paperwork, I'm pretty sure that I'm right about the nature of the transaction. On top of that, there was no "change in reservation" involved. We booked Couchette berths, he was just moving us to one of the empty Couchette compartments. And, I might add, guaranteeing us that we'd have that compartment for six to ourselves. If you were implying graft, I have travelled extensively on Italian trains (I live in Italy) and have never seen it. I don't doubt your experience; I can only accurately report mine. We managed to get ourselves a less crowded couchette (eventually one woman joined us) for the trip from Rome to Basel in the same fashion. I wonder if there might not be more opportunity for this sort of thing on overnight trains. My favorite bit of unoffical commerce was when the porter on a Hungarian train offered us a "l a n g u a g e" sandwich, rolling the "L" with his tongue stuck out as he said the word. That was a clue to the proper translation of the sandwich: Tongue. We opted for the dining car instead. A truly excellent meal, unless you don't like paprika. There was paprika in the meat, the potatoes and the salad. None in the drinks, as far as I could tell. Why do you assume that this service was unofficial? Trains in many European countries offer food from a rolling cart, or something of the sort, aside from the dining car. No cart, no tray, no menu, no display and no other choices. Just a few obviously homemade sandwiches in saran wrap. Nothing about that particularly bothered me, by the way. Had the type of sandwich been more to my taste I might have considered it. It's just as well we didn't, though. The meal we had instead was very enjoyable. Besides the excellent food, the decor had a certain elegance to it. There was even a bit of adventure, ordering from the German language menu (easier for us to decipher than Hungarian). Greg Guarino -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it. |
#103
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America travel pointers
The passengers are concentrated because it's less work for the staff that way, The particular trip that comes to mind (although it wasn't the only one) was an overnight train from Paris to Rome, so I suppose it was actually an Intercity train, but the staff people we met were Italian. Many if not most of the couchette compartments were labeled "Prenotato", but were empty. The few that were labeled "Non-Prenotato" (not reserved), like our designated compartment, had the full complement of six passengers. In our case, it was seven, including a small child on his mother's lap playing with a loud toy. There was no way to get those six and a half people plus all their luggage into that compartment, at least as it was configured at the time. Once they folded out the bunks for the night it might have been possible to jam it all in. As it was, a young Swedish couple left their large hiking packs in the corridor. The Italian mother had some of her prodigious collection of baggage out there too. I can't remember if the train picked up passengers along the way, it didn't make many stops. In any case, the train was not nearly full at any point in the fifteen-hour ride. and any change in a reserveration after you board the train entails a service charge. Unless it was official railway policy to have the passenger and the porter negotiate amount of the "service charge" in the corridor, to be paid in cash on the spot, with no receipt or hint of paperwork, I'm pretty sure that I'm right about the nature of the transaction. On top of that, there was no "change in reservation" involved. We booked Couchette berths, he was just moving us to one of the empty Couchette compartments. And, I might add, guaranteeing us that we'd have that compartment for six to ourselves. I've had the same experience on an overnight Polish train, from Budapest. All five people in the car in one couchette. The porter specifically wanted our dollars (this was pre Euro). "Ten dollars for zwei." After we paid, he took very good care of us the remainder of the trip, and it was worth the few extra bucks to get a good night's sleep. |
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