A Travel and vacations forum. TravelBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » TravelBanter forum » Travel Regions » Europe
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 17th, 2006, 05:34 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Karen Selwyn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing
the superiority of Russian orchestras. We've had someone explaining
Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've
never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian
musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German,
etc. musicians.

Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly
twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable
audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't
think Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American,
Danish, British, French, or German ballet companies.

The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were
included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great
anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two
companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll
see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically
excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and
pantomime.

When the leads do their solos and variations, I can see the talent of
the dancers: Russian men tend to execute leaps requiring strength well;
Russian women execute their steps with precision; and the corps tend to
be quite uniform. But the Royal Ballet, the Paris Opera Ballet, the
American Ballet Theatre, and the Royal Danish Ballets are every bit the
equals in dancing the big story ballets. (I saw the Ballet Nacional de
Cuba dance a GISELLE that was a revelation of what that classic ballet
could be.)

However, if I want to see a Balanchine ballet, I'd much rather watch the
New York City Ballet or American Ballet Theatre than either Russian
company. If I want to watch a MacMillan ballet, I'd much rather see the
Royal Ballet instead of either Russian company. The list goes on.

So what's the story with Russian orchestras?

Karen Selwyn

  #2  
Old August 17th, 2006, 08:36 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Runge
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,243
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

travel ?

"Karen Selwyn" a écrit dans le message de news:
FQ0Fg.10895$ok5.6152@dukeread01...
We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the
superiority of Russian orchestras. We've had someone explaining Russian
superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've never
heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian
musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc.
musicians.

Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly
twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable
audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't think
Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American, Danish,
British, French, or German ballet companies.

The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were
included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great
anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two
companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll
see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically
excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and
pantomime.

When the leads do their solos and variations, I can see the talent of the
dancers: Russian men tend to execute leaps requiring strength well;
Russian women execute their steps with precision; and the corps tend to be
quite uniform. But the Royal Ballet, the Paris Opera Ballet, the American
Ballet Theatre, and the Royal Danish Ballets are every bit the equals in
dancing the big story ballets. (I saw the Ballet Nacional de Cuba dance a
GISELLE that was a revelation of what that classic ballet could be.)

However, if I want to see a Balanchine ballet, I'd much rather watch the
New York City Ballet or American Ballet Theatre than either Russian
company. If I want to watch a MacMillan ballet, I'd much rather see the
Royal Ballet instead of either Russian company. The list goes on.

So what's the story with Russian orchestras?

Karen Selwyn



  #3  
Old August 17th, 2006, 10:10 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets


Runge ha scritto:

travel ?

"Karen Selwyn" a écrit dans le message de news:
FQ0Fg.10895$ok5.6152@dukeread01...
We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the
superiority of Russian orchestras.


Travel, travel.

I have had the fortune to attend theaters both in New York and in
Leningrad (before it changed name). Here is my opinion.
Russian instrumentalists are simply not surpassable for technique,
dedication and amalgama.
Russian orchestras are what is needed to perform (heavy) russian
symphonic music.
Just a tad, to be kind, heavy and baroque, though.

Don't ask them to play joyous Vivaldi nor Mozart. Let a western
orchestra play some major Schostakovitch and you fieel that so much is
lacking, though.

I believe the same goes in other fields, as well.
You just need to travel, guys.

Sergio
Pisa

  #4  
Old August 17th, 2006, 10:33 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
spamfree
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians
are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc.
musicians.


There are two issues here. One issue is that Russian musicians are
superior to all others. The other issue is that European musicians
are superior to American, Asian, or African musicians. The first
issue is only possibly true for Russian music, and some listeners
believe that Russians play Russian music better than others. The
second issue is definitely true. In the case of historically informed
performances (HIP), the world's best musicians are Europeans,
especially the Dutch, Austrians, and some Britains. When one
thinks of the world's best orchestras, they are all European: Vienna
Philharmonic Orchestra, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal
Concertgebouw Orchestra, etc. Chicago and Cleveland have been
great at various periods, but the VPO has always been superb.

The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies
were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great
anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these
two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be
confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is
technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery,
costumes, and pantomime.


So, you admit that the technical skills of the Bolshoi and Kirov are
equal to the best in the world. So what's your point?

The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy,
as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet.
However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet.
Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And
the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the
general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov.


  #5  
Old August 17th, 2006, 11:42 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Karen Selwyn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

spamfree wrote:
So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians
are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc.
musicians.



There are two issues here. One issue is that Russian musicians are
superior to all others. The other issue is that European musicians
are superior to American, Asian, or African musicians. The first
issue is only possibly true for Russian music, and some listeners
believe that Russians play Russian music better than others. The
second issue is definitely true. In the case of historically informed
performances (HIP), the world's best musicians are Europeans,
especially the Dutch, Austrians, and some Britains. When one
thinks of the world's best orchestras, they are all European: Vienna
Philharmonic Orchestra, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal
Concertgebouw Orchestra, etc. Chicago and Cleveland have been
great at various periods, but the VPO has always been superb.


The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies
were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great
anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these
two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be
confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is
technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery,
costumes, and pantomime.



So, you admit that the technical skills of the Bolshoi and Kirov are
equal to the best in the world. So what's your point?


The word "admit" puts a spin in my post that wasn't there. I was totally
up front about Russian technical skill; re-read my post and you'll see I
rather objectively acknowlege the strengths of Russian ballet companies.
You're not grudgingly wringing any admission from me. My post simply
pointed out that as talented as the Russian dancers/companies may be,
they are not singularly entitled to that description. Furthermore, for
some types of dancing, they aren't even in contention. Since this is
true for ballet, I couldn't comprehend how others could make such
sweeping and universal claims of superiority for Russian orchestras.

The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy,
as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet.
However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet.
Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And
the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the
general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov.


Please, let's not compare apples and oranges. You can't be seriously
trying to compare the Bolshoi and Kirov to La Scalla Ballet. I won't
argue with your conclusion in that particular match-up. But that misses
the point. The American Ballet Theatre, Royal Ballet, or Paris Opera
Ballet are every bit the equal of the Bolshoi and Kirov companies.

Of course, if you insist on an apples and oranges comparison, I win with
the "The Russian Ballet" company, one of the truly pathetic ballet
companies of all time. Summer 2003, we saw this company perform at the
Alexandrinsky Theater in St. Petersburg. These dancers weren't even
good enough to be the senior students at the top Russian dance
academies, much less a paid professional company. Anyone who formed
his/her opinion of Russian ballet on the basis of this performance would
be hard-pressed to praise anything other than the opulence of the
theater. Suffice it to say that the roles of Odette/Odile had to be
assigned to two separate ballerinas because no ballerina in that company
could pull off the challenging double role. Someone unfamiliar with SWAN
LAKE might not have realized what was going on with two ballerinas, but
the fact that the male lead fell a couple of times and it was a pleasant
surprise when the corps was in unison was unmistakable to the most
casual observer.

Karen Selwyn

  #6  
Old August 17th, 2006, 11:55 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,816
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets



Karen Selwyn wrote:

We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing
the superiority of Russian orchestras.


Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some
asshole or other - "mr travel", I think - that one
"accomplished" orchestra is not a substitute for another,
nor is it.) Where did you get the peculiar notion that only
Russian musicians were affected? From all reports, the
sudden ban on instruments in the cabin applied to all
touring musicians equally.

We've had someone explaining
Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've
never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian
musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German,
etc. musicians.


No one SAID "superior" - but can anyone who knows anything
at all about classical music claim that the Bolshoi and the
London Philharmonic are the SAME? Or that, if one wants to
hear Hrovstovsky, a recital by Terfel is "just as good"?
(For that matter, I don't think people who like popular
music would say that a concert by one group was "just as
good" as a concert by another, even though both were of
similar fame and popularity.)


Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly
twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable
audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't
think Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American,
Danish, British, French, or German ballet companies.


Again, no one SAID "better"! Is that any reason you would
not want to be allowed the opportunity to see both - without
traveling to Russia? Most of my travel to Europe has been
to see opera I can't see in this country. That's not to say
the Met is not the equal of the top European companies, but
they are DIFFERENT - their choice of repertoire includes
operas the Met seldom if ever does, and some of their
singers never appear in the U.S. I also enjoy the Met, on
occasion - one experience does not substitute for the
other. (Only an idiot would suggest that it does.)

  #8  
Old August 18th, 2006, 12:33 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
spamfree
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy,
as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet.
However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet.
Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And
the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the
general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov.


Please, let's not compare apples and oranges. You can't be seriously
trying to compare the Bolshoi and Kirov to La Scalla Ballet. I won't argue
with your conclusion in that particular match-up. But that misses the
point. The American Ballet Theatre, Royal Ballet, or Paris Opera Ballet
are every bit the equal of the Bolshoi and Kirov companies.


Actually this is more of a fruit basket. The ABT is really the only
truly great American ballet company, hence my point. The USA has
twice the population of Russia (I'm rounding a bit, but not too much)
and exactly 1/2 as many great ballet companies. Actually it is worse
than that, because Russia has better ballet in Perm than the USA
does in SF. My comparison of the Bolshoi/Kirov versus La Scala -
and you are correct, it is no comparison - was intended to show
that a Russian dancer was the top doggie. And even the Paris Ballet
uses lines on the stage to show the herds how/where to move, but the
Bolshoi/Kirov employ no such aids. Though I must admit, the Paris
Ballet has the best looking women dancers in the world, probably
not a big criteria for you.


  #9  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:22 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
Karen Selwyn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:


We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing
the superiority of Russian orchestras.



Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some asshole or
other - "mr travel", I think - that one "accomplished" orchestra is not
a substitute for another, nor is it.)



Saturday, August 12, Mr. Travel wrote: "What's the difference between
qualified people from Russia or the US playing the same music?"

That same day you responded, "Don't display your ignorance, moron!"

You'll respond to people as you see fit, but I disagree that "don't
display your ignorance, moron" doesn't quite mean the same thing as "one
accomplished orchestra is not a substitute for another."

What if someone else had asked that question?

Frankly, I really don't know much about classical music and orchestras,
and I would have welcomed learning something had someone answered Mr.
Travel's apparently innocuous question.

Where did you get the peculiar
notion that only Russian musicians were affected? From all reports, the
sudden ban on instruments in the cabin applied to all touring musicians
equally.


Please re-read my post. The topic of bans on instruments in cabins
wasn't even mentioned much less Russian musicians being singularly
affected. I was trying to find out the answer to the question that has
nagged me since Mr. Travel posted it so I started this thread.

We've had someone explaining

Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians
I've never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that
Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or
German, etc. musicians.



No one SAID "superior" - but can anyone who knows anything at all about
classical music claim that the Bolshoi and the London Philharmonic are
the SAME? Or that, if one wants to hear Hrovstovsky, a recital by
Terfel is "just as good"?


Please, I'm legitimately interested. Simply stating the Bolshoi and
London Philharmonic aren't the same isn't helping me. Is the difference
interpretation? execution? what? Are there specific recordings I could
listen to to hear the difference.

Again, no one SAID "better"! Is that any reason you would not want to
be allowed the opportunity to see both - without traveling to Russia?


My post wasn't about travel.

Most of my travel to Europe has been to see opera I can't see in this
country. That's not to say the Met is not the equal of the top European
companies, but they are DIFFERENT - their choice of repertoire includes
operas the Met seldom if ever does, and some of their singers never
appear in the U.S. I also enjoy the Met, on occasion - one experience
does not substitute for the other. (Only an idiot would suggest that it
does.)


Then I have an advantage. I've come to prefer abstract ballet to story
ballet since a huge portion of story ballet is simply pantomime. The
premiere companies performing abstract ballets are US companies and they
travel to the Kennedy Center annually.

Karen Selwyn

  #10  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:44 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,816
Default Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets



Karen Selwyn wrote:

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:



We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing
the superiority of Russian orchestras.




Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some asshole or
other - "mr travel", I think - that one "accomplished" orchestra is
not a substitute for another, nor is it.)




Saturday, August 12, Mr. Travel wrote: "What's the difference between
qualified people from Russia or the US playing the same music?"

That same day you responded, "Don't display your ignorance, moron!"


Are you saying his asinine question was NOT moronic? No two
equally qualified musicians play the same piece of music the
SAME (and no two directors interpret it the same). To think
they are interchangeable is to display abysmal ignorance, IMO!

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kaliningrad: from Russian relic to Baltic boom town eetinBelgië Europe 7 March 26th, 2006 05:57 AM
Trip Report: Russian River Cruise -- Part I Karen Selwyn Cruises 12 June 1st, 2005 01:40 AM
Celebrity Constellation Review 8/26/04 Baltics Jeff Stieglitz Cruises 40 September 12th, 2004 04:07 AM
Russian President Putin Praises Performance! Ray Goldenberg Cruises 0 April 3rd, 2004 06:33 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 TravelBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.