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transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 16th, 2009, 05:27 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,misc.transport.urban-transit
Giovanni Drogo
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Posts: 811
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]

Since Didier is always giving interesting reports on public transport in
Paris, I wonder if he can confirm one thing I've been told. I crosspost
to mtut, but follow up to rte, since I believe he listens there.

The topic is "line maps and diagrams at bus/tram stops", and is
instigated by some recent changes in the stops in Milan.

Older tram and bus stops in Milan had a pole with a large signpost. This
signpost reported a line diagram (a vertical line with the stop names on
the side, and also the connecting lines at each stop). The current stop
was highlighted. Since there are no line diagrams onboard (I believe
because one car can be assigned to different lines), the signposts were
handy because they were written large enough that one can read them
passing by, and evaluate where one is on the route. The signpost is
perpendicular to the direction of travel.

Some stops had covered shelters. These usually had a large map of all
lines (a real map with streets and street name list, not a diagram).

Later they replaced a number of signposts with electronic displays. The
displays were also perpendicular to the direction of travel, and were
intended to display the time to the next tram or bus (per line). For
some reason they never worked reliably (either no information, or a time
not corresponding to the real situation). The line diagram was moved to
a small (A4 or less) tablet below, together with the timetables. These
weren't readable from onboard.

Sheltered stops remained the same.

Recently there has been a massive replacement of the sheltered stops and
installation of new shelters. The shelters should by paid by some
sponsor (the advertising company which uses them for commercial ads) and
are said to be designed by Lord Norman Foster. Such shelters feature a
little seat (which is narrow and convex, and extremely uncomfortable), a
panel with the place for a map, and an electronic display. This display
is now parallel to the tracks, so one can read it also onboard, and the
messages are sort of more reliable.

But the main issue is the map and line diagrams. They are presently
removing the old maps of the entire city, and replacing them with a few
A4-size timetables and a new hybrid map/diagram. This is printed on a
long and narrow strip (say 2 or 3 landscape A4 on the side of each
other). It gives the route of the line superimposed on a partial map of
the streets.

But because of the size of the long-and-narrow strips, such map has NOT
the customary "north is up" orientation, which I find extremely
confusing. (ATM is also rearranging a number of routes in the northern
part of Milan, and has published a 40 page PDF brochure, which reports
on A4 landscape pages the long-and-narrow schemes of the new lines ...
they are so long that have to be split in more than one page, and
usually the resolution is such one cannot print the underlying map
neatly ... also the different sections on the different pages are not
only not north-up, but have a different orientation from page to page,
and there is a little thumbnail which shows the reciprocal orientation
of the pieces).

I personally find this awkward to read, and I do not understand why
they've abandoned the custom established since several centuries to have
the north up. Their long strips remind me of the Tabula Peutingeriana
:-)

Now somebody to whom I told the above, observed that he has seen
recently some stop shelters in Paris, and they looked to him identical
to the "Norman Foster" ones, and they also had long strip map/diagrams,
Can Didier or somebody else confirm ?

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  #2  
Old January 16th, 2009, 06:26 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
James Silverton[_2_]
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Posts: 531
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]

Giovanni wrote on Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:27:46 +0100:

The topic is "line maps and diagrams at bus/tram stops", and
is instigated by some recent changes in the stops in Milan.


A French friend gave my wife a rather pretty head scarf imprinted with a
Paris Metro map. It was quite useful even if she was reluctant to use
the map when it was raining!

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

  #3  
Old January 17th, 2009, 03:44 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
didier Meurgues
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Posts: 335
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]

On 16 jan, 17:27, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
Since Didier is always giving interesting reports on public transport in
Paris, I wonder if he can confirm one thing I've been told. I crosspost
to mtut, but follow up to rte, since I believe he listens there.

The topic is "line maps and diagrams at bus/tram stops", and is
instigated by some recent changes in the stops in Milan.

Older tram and bus stops in Milan had a pole with a large signpost. This
signpost reported a line diagram (a vertical line with the stop names on
the side, and also the connecting lines at each stop). The current stop
was highlighted. Since there are no line diagrams onboard (I believe
because one car can be assigned to different lines), the signposts were
handy because they were written large enough that one can read them
passing by, and evaluate where one is on the route. The signpost is
perpendicular to the direction of travel.


Hi Giovanni,
You are lucky that I made an imprecision in my former post and noticed
consequently yours, since I don't write a lot anymore on
rec.travel.europe.
I reply by memory. I will modify later if I make mistakes.

So the former isolated milanese signpost looked like those of Roma, if
I remember well. They normally have timetables too.
The problem with these poles or those of London is that they usually
lack a map which is mandatory for tourists to understand the line.
In Paris, the isolated poles are smaller but with the timetables they
have a diagram of the line printed over a narrow stripe of the real
map on a small (A4?) page.
The page is not always oriented North. Normally, but it depends how
the line diagram fits in the page. Some triangles show the direction
of the bus at each stop both sides of the streets and you can guess
the direction of the map because of the direction of the bus...

Some stops had covered shelters. These usually had a large map of all
lines (a real map with streets and street name list, not a diagram).


Good. With a map in the shelters you can choose the bus and the
connections before getting in the bus. I always do it before.
I just check inside the bus the connection or arrival stops. That can
be done in Paris bus which have inside above each door a diagram of
the line with connection stops, printed over a narrow stripe of the
real map. In the metro you've got too a diagram of both the line
(above the doors) and network (next to half of the doors).
En-route, your position can be checked with the name of the stop
indicated on the cornice (parallel to the street) of the shelter, on
the right I think (you need to bend a little to see it from the bus
when you pass by : better to stand at rear door to read it when the
bus stops) or over the isolated signposts (much more difficult to see
them en-route nevertheless). According to the inside map, you can
check too the name of the streets with the little enamelled blue
boards normally put at each street corner.

Later they replaced a number of signposts with electronic displays. The
displays were also perpendicular to the direction of travel, and were
intended to display the time to the next tram or bus (per line). For
some reason they never worked reliably (either no information, or a time
not corresponding to the real situation). The line diagram was moved to
a small (A4 or less) tablet below, together with the timetables. These
weren't readable from onboard.

Sheltered stops remained the same.

Recently there has been a massive replacement of the sheltered stops and
installation of new shelters. The shelters should by paid by some
sponsor (the advertising company which uses them for commercial ads) and
are said to be designed by Lord Norman Foster. Such shelters feature a
little seat (which is narrow and convex, and extremely uncomfortable), a
panel with the place for a map, and an electronic display. This display
is now parallel to the tracks, so one can read it also onboard, and the
messages are sort of more reliable.


The Paris shelters are as well designed by Norman Foster after a
competition which took place several years ago.
They were changed about 10 years ago. I'll try to find the date.
They've got a flat seat, approximatively 1.5 m-2 m long and about 30
cm large.
There's a map of the area with each nearby bus stop and their lines
numbers, a diagram of each bus line passing at the bus stop printed
over a narrow stripe of the real map and since few years an electronic
display showing the passing hour of the next 2 buses (like in the
metro) parallel to the street. Behing the shelter there's a map of the
bus network (+ smaller ones for evenings and week-ends). On the
cornice you've got the name of the bus stop and the numbers of the
lines, including nightbuses with a special logo.

But the main issue is the map and line diagrams. They are presently
removing the old maps of the entire city, and replacing them with a few
A4-size timetables and a new hybrid map/diagram. This is printed on a
long and narrow strip (say 2 or 3 landscape A4 on the side of each
other). It gives the route of the line superimposed on a partial map of
the streets.


In Paris shelters you've got the stripe line diagram inside but always
too the network map of all Paris behind.
This is of course necessary to choose the connections before getting
in the bus.

But because of the size of the long-and-narrow strips, such map has NOT
the customary "north is up" orientation, which I find extremely
confusing. (ATM is also rearranging a number of routes in the northern
part of Milan, and has published a 40 page PDF brochure, which reports
on A4 landscape pages the long-and-narrow schemes of the new lines ...
they are so long that have to be split in more than one page, and
usually the resolution is such one cannot print the underlying map
neatly ... also the different sections on the different pages are not
only not north-up, but have a different orientation from page to page,
and there is a little thumbnail which shows the reciprocal orientation
of the pieces).

I personally find this awkward to read, and I do not understand why
they've abandoned the custom established since several centuries to have
the north up. Their long strips remind me of the Tabula Peutingeriana
:-)


Yes, but it was the same for the vertical diagram on the isolated
signposts, isn't it ?
They should add a real map of the network too in the shelters. Both
maps have their advantages.

Now somebody to whom I told the above, *observed that he has seen
recently some stop shelters in Paris, and they looked to him identical
to the "Norman Foster" ones, and they also had long strip map/diagrams,
Can Didier or somebody else confirm ?


Yes the systems and furnitures seem now very similar. See comparaisons
above.

In Paris, you can find a map within few hundred meters in the street
and the street names are indicated at their corners. IMO the easiest
to find are the bus stop or shelter maps (Paris and/or area). But also
inside the entrance of each metro stations (area and Paris) and above
it as well in the street (Paris) usefull after metro closing, behind
some advertising boards (area : with monuments or with hotels). In
fact I don't know another city with so much maps by km2. Only blinds
can get lost :+).

didier Meurgues

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  #4  
Old January 17th, 2009, 08:28 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
poldy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 788
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]

In article ,
"James Silverton" wrote:

Giovanni wrote on Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:27:46 +0100:

The topic is "line maps and diagrams at bus/tram stops", and
is instigated by some recent changes in the stops in Milan.


A French friend gave my wife a rather pretty head scarf imprinted with a
Paris Metro map. It was quite useful even if she was reluctant to use
the map when it was raining!


I downloaded a free app. for the iPhone 3G called iMetro. Has scans of
several metro systems all over the world.

There are pay applications which will actually let you do route
planning, entering in starting and ending points and they supposedly
plot your itinerary for you.

I'm not sure if they need a data connection to get schedules in real
time.
  #5  
Old January 17th, 2009, 09:42 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
Markku Grönroos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,095
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]


"poldy" kirjoitti
viestissä

I'm not sure if they need a data connection to get schedules in real
time.

Eh?

  #6  
Old January 19th, 2009, 09:11 PM posted to rec.travel.europe
didier Meurgues
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 335
Default transport maps in Paris (and Milan) [for didier Meurgues]

On 17 jan, 15:44, didier Meurgues wrote:

Hi Giovanni,
I reply by memory. I will modify later if I make mistakes.


My visual memory was roughly correct. The bus lines numbers or on the
edge of the bus signposts and shelters cornice.

The Paris shelters are as well designed by Norman Foster after a
competition which took place several years ago.
They were changed about 10 years ago. I'll try to find the date.


In 1994 apparently :
http://www.vitruvio.ch/arc/furniture/abribus.php

According to the Newspapers L’express and Liberation (today issues)
DECAUX Cie asked furnitures to several designers since the late 80ies.
« Decaux (…) a ainsi fait appel à des designers aussi renommés que
Jean-Michel Wilmotte pour ses colonnes Morris, Norman Foster pour ses
Abribus, Patrick Jouin pour ses panneaux d'affichage, ou encore
Philippe Starck pour ses réverbères. »
« Aussi, à la fin des années 80, suivant l'exemple de certains maires
avides de créations nouvelles, Decaux fait travailler Philippe Starck,
Foster, Wilmotte, Oscar Tusquets. En 1992, il s'adresse à de plus
jeunes designers : Sylvain Dubuisson, Martin Szekely. »

In Paris, you can find a map within few hundred meters in the street
and the street names are indicated at their corners. IMO the easiest
to find are the bus stop or shelter maps (Paris and/or area). But also
inside the entrance of each metro stations (area and Paris) and above
it as well in the street (Paris) usefull after metro closing, as well behind
some advertising boards (area : with monuments or with hotels). In
fact I don't know another city with so much maps by km2. Only blinds
can get lost :+).


I forgot the very usefull maps (area) of the velib’ stations, every
about 300 m, and as visible as bus shelters in the streets. The area
is larger and better readable than on the more numerous bus stops
maps ; smaller than on the less numerous and less visible advertising
panels/boards.

Velib stations map : http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/0/...PM2/V-lib..pdf
(open after 10 seconds).

Ciao Giovanni

didier Meurgues

  #7  
Old January 20th, 2009, 05:50 AM posted to rec.travel.europe
hackamore
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Posts: 71
Default transport maps


Hi,

In Paris I generally take the metro... I find it simpler to navigate...
but for some trips I'll take the bus... at least that way you see Paris.

Amsterdam has the trams and bikes... and they beat the buses and the
subway hands down.

London has the tube... and it's handy... the buses aren't to hard... but
I inevitably get on going the wrong way!... I look at the map and
THINKING in LHD mode (oddly I drive a RHD car in the States) get on the
bus on the wrong side of the street... but like in Paris I get to see
more of the city... and I figure out I'm going the wrong way after a bit
and get off/switch sides and head on to my destinations.

but these off route trips can be fun... you find things you wouldn't
find otherwise... get of the tourist track a bit.

--

Hackamore
http://www.hackamore.com
http://hackamoretravel.blogspot.com
 




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