"Canada" The Deserters Choice

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:04:52 GMT, Brian Wickham
wrote:

John Kerry was a rich boy. He seemed to understand his duty.
President George Bush's father flew in combat. I wonder what his
feelings are about his son's lack of a sense of duty? I feel sorry
for him because I know what he may be thinking. My stepfather flew 30
combat missions as a gunner in the 8th Air Force. He lived through
hell and came home to tell me that the louder the patriot, the bigger
the coward. George Bush Sr. must know that. I feel sorry for him and
the sacrifices he made in the Pacific to be so dishonored by such a
callow son.

Being a pilot in th NG was no guarantee of safety. OTOH, many people
went into the Air Force and Navy voluntarily to minimize the chance of
finding one's self in mortal danger via the draft. The exception to
this would be those in flight status. This brings us to your guy
Kerry. Somehow he ended up in the Navy. He wasn't drafted! He was
one of the unlucky ones that ended up in Vietnam. Now, I have not
seen his record, and he may well have volunteered for every assignment
he received, but the fact that he went into the Navy at a time when
the war was primarily a ground war raises questions in my mind.

Russ
respond here or email responses to

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:41:55 -0400, Russell Patterson
wrote:



Being a pilot in th NG was no guarantee of safety. OTOH, many people
went into the Air Force and Navy voluntarily to minimize the chance of
finding one's self in mortal danger via the draft. The exception to
this would be those in flight status.

A good point, but equating 4 years of Air Force or Navy duty with
shirking is stretching the point a bit. Da Nang was a huge Naval
presence and I don't think you would have liked walking perimeter
guard duty at Ben Hoa Air Base. Anyway it was the Coast Guard that
had the reputation (at least humorously) as a place for legal draft
dodgers. But it's illuminating to see that a knee jerk Republican
reaction would be to denigrate all Air Force or Naval service as
motivated by combat avoidance.

As to flight status: If a pilot will make sure he flies only a type of
plane that is not used in Vietnam, specifically requests no overseas
assignment, when he needs to move gets himself assigned to an Alabama
unit that flies his type of plane (not used in Vietnam) and blows off
his flight physical, do we start to see a pattern emerging? It looks
to me like Bush boxed the compass on combat avoidance. Officers are
not supposed to do that, or even to appear having done that. I wonder
what my old friend Mike has to say about our Fearless Leader? Mike
was a Marine navigator in A-6 Intruders. He told me they were getting
their asses shot up bombing pottery factories in North Vietnam. So
now we know who Mike was making the world safe for.

The way the rest of us saw it was, "In for a penny, in for a pound."
Once you showed up for induction and took the oath you had to go along
with whatever came your way. It really does appear that George Bush
had a different standard.


This brings us to your guy
Kerry. Somehow he ended up in the Navy. He wasn't drafted! He was
one of the unlucky ones that ended up in Vietnam. Now, I have not
seen his record, and he may well have volunteered for every assignment
he received, but the fact that he went into the Navy at a time when
the war was primarily a ground war raises questions in my mind.

Again I find it hard to believe that anyone would equate Naval duty
with avoidance! I have no knowledge of the circumstances of Kerry
being in Vietnam. Whatever his reasons he wound up in combat and
acquitted himself nicely. Isn't that what we ask of officers?
Enlisted men are expected to show up for duty and just do their jobs.
For that they get a medal when they leave. Officers need to
demonstrate leadership and confidence. If I had been in a combat MOS
I would have prayed to have an officer like John Kerry and if you
think about it you would have too.

I'm also upset with the Republican propaganda denigrating Kerry's
Purple Hearts. Nobody angles for a Purple Heart. For many in Vietnam
it was considered a bull**** medal anyway. I once had to go interview
GIs in the Fort Gordon hospital who were back from Vietnam with
wounds. They had all been awarded their Purple Hearts in a mass
ceremony where they pinned them on the pillows next to each guy's
head. The first guy I spoke to was embarrassed because he got his leg
smashed building a bunker when a log slipped out of place and pinned
him. He had a condition bad enough to send him home and he was
embarrassed about the medal! A childhood friend of mine was a Huey
door gunner in 1965. He said that every time you went to the
dispensary for a couple of aspirin they tried to give you a Purple
Heart! For some bozo to now claim that Kerry got a medal for a mild
wound is not news to Vietnam vets. Some guys shot themselves and got
a Purple Heart when all they wanted was to go home.

General George Patton once said that the only decoration worth
anything to a infantry soldier is the Combat Infantryman's Badge.
Medals are handed out on fluke circumstances but the CIB goes to every
man who walked into the face of the enemy. That's all the courage you
need, and from what I see John Kerry had that.

There should be a little more respect for the men who have seen combat
and a little less criticizing and flag waving by the men who had
"other priorities". We know that Dick Cheney and all the other
non-serving Republicans were conflicted about being drafted and going
to Vietnam. So were all the rest of us who did go! We know exactly
what they felt, we felt the same fears and emotions. And our mothers
were sick with worry while their's weren't. REMEMBER THAT. So don't
spin some half-baked, 35 years too late, ideas about what may have
been going through someone's mind at the time.

The Dick Cheney's of the world are not unique. I had a friend at Fort
Gordon who got orders for Vietnam but deserted when he got to San
Francisco. He couldn't bear the load. Another guy in my barracks was
on the same orders as me but he had greased the right palm with $50
and they penciled in a code on his medical file that ensured he would
never get past Fort Dix when he reported for transport. He went back
to Fort Gordon. How do I know? I got the same offer. So at every
step of the game there were Dick Cheneys bailing out at various
points. He did the same thing, only without having to go through
basic training.

And be sure to remember, it was the Republicans who raised this issue.
Kerry didn't make much of his Vietnam service until his record was
attacked unjustly. Now when he answers a Republican slander about
Vietnam they shout back that we have to think about today and not
dwell on the past. The consummate gall of these people! As Joseph
Welch once famously asked, "At long last, have you no decency sir?"
Of course, the strategy works. One can't help noticing that the
public argument is not about the failings of the Bush administration
or the important issues of the day.

Brian Wickham

Russell Patterson wrote:

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:04:52 GMT, Brian Wickham
wrote:

John Kerry was a rich boy. He seemed to understand his duty.
President George Bush's father flew in combat. I wonder what his
feelings are about his son's lack of a sense of duty? I feel sorry
for him because I know what he may be thinking. My stepfather flew 30
combat missions as a gunner in the 8th Air Force. He lived through
hell and came home to tell me that the louder the patriot, the bigger
the coward. George Bush Sr. must know that. I feel sorry for him and
the sacrifices he made in the Pacific to be so dishonored by such a
callow son.

Being a pilot in th NG was no guarantee of safety. OTOH, many people
went into the Air Force and Navy voluntarily to minimize the chance of
finding one's self in mortal danger via the draft. The exception to
this would be those in flight status. This brings us to your guy
Kerry. Somehow he ended up in the Navy. He wasn't drafted! He was
one of the unlucky ones that ended up in Vietnam. Now, I have not
seen his record, and he may well have volunteered for every assignment
he received, but the fact that he went into the Navy at a time when
the war was primarily a ground war raises questions in my mind.

Russ


Kerry served in the riverine force, small boats
doing recon and ground force infiltration.

He was wounded there, awarded medals for bravery
there, came back and became part of the Viet
vets against the war movement.

BTW larger US ships took a lot of grief from
North Viet MIGs.

"John Ramsay" wrote in message
...


Russell Patterson wrote:

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:04:52 GMT, Brian Wickham
wrote:

John Kerry was a rich boy. He seemed to understand his duty.
President George Bush's father flew in combat. I wonder what his
feelings are about his son's lack of a sense of duty? I feel sorry
for him because I know what he may be thinking. My stepfather flew 30
combat missions as a gunner in the 8th Air Force. He lived through
hell and came home to tell me that the louder the patriot, the bigger
the coward. George Bush Sr. must know that. I feel sorry for him and
the sacrifices he made in the Pacific to be so dishonored by such a
callow son.

Being a pilot in th NG was no guarantee of safety. OTOH, many people
went into the Air Force and Navy voluntarily to minimize the chance of
finding one's self in mortal danger via the draft. The exception to
this would be those in flight status. This brings us to your guy
Kerry. Somehow he ended up in the Navy. He wasn't drafted! He was
one of the unlucky ones that ended up in Vietnam. Now, I have not
seen his record, and he may well have volunteered for every assignment
he received, but the fact that he went into the Navy at a time when
the war was primarily a ground war raises questions in my mind.

Russ


Kerry served in the riverine force, small boats
doing recon and ground force infiltration.

He was wounded there, awarded medals for bravery
there, came back and became part of the Viet
vets against the war movement.

Yep.. He was wounded alright. A scratch on the arm didn't even draw blood,
or result in time off. What a hero he was.
He got those metals by deception in order to get out of nam. When you are a
enlisted man and a officer says medic I'm wounded, What can you say but yes,
sir. 3 purple heart in 4 months with no time off, give me a break. Also one
of his commanders said, "There wasn't even any shooting going on one of the
times he was injured." The just went under a low hanging branch that
scratched him. What a hero.....

The back story that the US media has not
reported on is the fact the 1000s of Americans
have deserted the Iraq war in the last year
or so.

Also, if Bush is re-elected you can bet the
draft will be re-instated, sending 100s of
young men and women to their grave... all
for the sake of some cheap oil.

Let's see Bush and Cheney's war record, or
were they both too stoned back in the 60's
to even notice there was a war going on.

I'll believe this Iraq war is justified
when Bush and Cheney's lesbian girls enlist
and go the front lines, till then, you got
to believe that Republicans are cowards, they
all for war as long as some one else does the
dieing.

Tom

Boycott Canada wrote:
Yep.. He was wounded alright. A scratch on the arm didn't even draw blood,
or result in time off. What a hero he was.

Keep some perspective. Remember the operative comparison is to George W.
Bush.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 05:48:08 GMT, Brian Wickham
wrote:

A good point, but equating 4 years of Air Force or Navy duty with
shirking is stretching the point a bit. Da Nang was a huge Naval
presence and I don't think you would have liked walking perimeter
guard duty at Ben Hoa Air Base. Anyway it was the Coast Guard that
had the reputation (at least humorously) as a place for legal draft
dodgers. But it's illuminating to see that a knee jerk Republican
reaction would be to denigrate all Air Force or Naval service as
motivated by combat avoidance.

The real point is that many men of that time did what they felt was
right for them to fit in or opt out. For some it was to wait to be
drafted. For some it was to enlist in an "alternative service". For
others it was to go to Canada. In every case there was still an
element of risk.
To enlist in the AF or Navy, and have a better than 75% chance of not
seeing combat.
To go to Canada and risk never seeing family again, or even to be
turned in by the Canadian Government should there be a change.
To wait and take a chance on the draft.

About 4 years ago I was in a training class (Field Service) and on day
one everybody was giving the usual spiel about their life experiences.
After most of the class had finished it was my turn. Quite a few of
them had been in the Navy. I started speaking very slowly, "Like many
other people did during Viet Nam, I avoided military service by...
....Joining the Air Force." I got a lot of laughs, because most of the
ex-Navy people understood what I was talking about. It was a kind of
nervous laughter.

I was not denigrating Navy or Air Force enlistees. I was trying to
point out that there were many ways to perform your patriotic duty.
Some were less risky than others, but the jobs still needed to be done
by somebody.

Russ



respond here or email responses to

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:57:10 GMT, "Boycott Canada"
wrote:


"John Ramsay" wrote in message
...

He was wounded there, awarded medals for bravery
there, came back and became part of the Viet
vets against the war movement.

Yep.. He was wounded alright. A scratch on the arm didn't even draw blood,
or result in time off. What a hero he was.
He got those metals by deception in order to get out of nam. When you are a
enlisted man and a officer says medic I'm wounded, What can you say but yes,
sir. 3 purple heart in 4 months with no time off, give me a break. Also one
of his commanders said, "There wasn't even any shooting going on one of the
times he was injured." The just went under a low hanging branch that
scratched him. What a hero.....


Yes, what a shame, especially when you consider all the "metals" (sic)
that George Bush could have won if he had shown up for duty. But
maybe wishing will make it so! It worked for Dorothy!

Again, Purple Hearts are not for heroism, no matter how much you
pretend they are. Silver Stars are. How many Silver Stars are held
by the current administration? How many Bronze Stars with V? How
many anything? How many Republicans does it take to sling mud at a
man for fulfilling his military duty? How many Republicans know what
military duty is? How many Republicans believe that military duty is
for suckers? How many Republicans were dead set against fighting
Hitler? Enough that FDR would not have been able to go to war in
Europe if Hitler had not declared war on us on Dec 11, 1941. (Here's
where you jump in and state that he never actually declared war. Read
the speech, it's on the internet. Near the end he says that Germany,
Italy & Japan are at war with the US and Britain.)

I'll give you a good example of Republican patriotism. ITT sued the
US government during the Eisenhower administration for wartime damage
to one of it's aircraft plants, and won in Federal court.
Unfortunately the aircraft it had been producing were Messerschmitts
and the people who damaged it were the 8th Air Force. You gotta love
those business types who also bankroll the far right.

You're welcome, Mr. Canada (your posted name), to keep it coming.
Your inane ramblings, based on faith or misdirection or whatever it is
you guys are pedalling this week, are laughable and quite easily
countered with fact and reason. I'm sorry, I know that "reason" is an
ugly word to "the faithful", but I couldn't help myself. Maybe the
devil made me do it!

Brian


How did you wind up with a name like Boycott Canada? I've heard of
Captain Boycott and the only person I ever heard of named Canada was
the actor Canada Lee. Maybe your name is Canada Boycott? That makes
more sense, Yes. You must be Canada Boycott. Any middle initial?

Yeah George W Bush ran there in the Vietnam war time, I heard there is
video footage of him hiding under CN tower, luckily daddy bush senior
pulled some political strings, and a helicopter flew in, and they
wrapped him up in cotton wool with a nice cup of coco.

Ahh ode to being rich and a politician from texas.

"Boycott Canada" wrote in message ...
"Canada" The Deserters Choice. Why be a man, when you can crawl with the
snakes. Run to Canada... The Deserters Choice....

"Boycott Canada" wrote in message
.. .
"John Ramsay" wrote in message
...
He was wounded there, awarded medals for bravery
there, came back and became part of the Viet
vets against the war movement.

Yep.. He was wounded alright. A scratch on the arm didn't even draw blood,
or result in time off. What a hero he was.
He got those metals by deception in order to get out of nam. When you are a
enlisted man and a officer says medic I'm wounded, What can you say but
yes,
sir. 3 purple heart in 4 months with no time off, give me a break. Also one
of his commanders said, "There wasn't even any shooting going on one of the
times he was injured." The just went under a low hanging branch that
scratched him. What a hero.....


"The fabled and distinguished chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo
Zumwalt, told me 30 years ago when he was still CNO that during his own
command of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO,
young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass, by
killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military
targets. We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control."
~ General William Westmoreland, _Vietnam - the War Years_, Time-Life Books

That book was written back in the 70s, so it wasn't part of an election
quarrel. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and mo http://keith.martin.home.att.net/