Soon, new rules for foreigners visiting US

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:11:20 +0000, Reid
wrote:

Following up to Earl Evleth

The US authorities will require a lot of this information after March,
including credit card numbers! What if you refuse? What if you lie?
(like with WMDs in Iraq!).

Ultimately it will be dissuasive to traveling to the USA.

Yes, its quite a contrast to travelling within the EU. The long
plane ride puts me off, customs fuss is maybe a last nail in the
coffin.


Having just returned from a trip to The EU earlier this week, I was
quite upset that when I arrived in Paris (the 1st part of my trip) and
went through immigration the Officer refused to stamp my passport. He
simply looked at it; he didn't scan it into a machine - just looked at
it. There was no immigration card given out on the flight over from
NY. So in effect there was no record (asside from plane records) that
I was in fact in France. I could go anywhere from there without
leaving an audit trail. And worse, anyone can enter that country
untracked. It did not make me feel comfortable or safe while visiting
there. When I left it was the same - no recording of my leaving. I
told the US Customs agent of this on my return home and he was quite
surprised.

What gives with France??

Cheers,
Ann

To email: replace 'REMOVE' with 'b' in email address.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:27:34 GMT, Ann B.
wrote:
Having just returned from a trip to The EU earlier this week, I was
quite upset that when I arrived in Paris (the 1st part of my trip) and
went through immigration the Officer refused to stamp my passport. He
simply looked at it; he didn't scan it into a machine - just looked at
it. There was no immigration card given out on the flight over from
NY. So in effect there was no record (asside from plane records) that
I was in fact in France. I could go anywhere from there without
leaving an audit trail. And worse, anyone can enter that country
untracked.

No, not anyone, certain people with valid US passports arriving from
the US - that's not quite the same as "anyone".

Exactly what sort of procedures would you want? Why do you feel the
knowledge that you're in France is different to the knowledge that
you're in California, or are your countrymen so untrustworthy that US
citizens shouldn't be allowed anywhere?

Jim.

In article , Earl Evleth
writes

The last time we went to the US, on American Airlines in June,
the security agent asked us a really very large number of questions.
We spooked her since we had both US and French passports, but there
are a few us of "birds" around. Anyway, the what I thought was non-standard
question was asking for our hotel and car rental reservations in the US!
She wanted all our travel activity in the USA and even in London on the
way back!

The US authorities will require a lot of this information after March,
including credit card numbers! What if you refuse? What if you lie?
(like with WMDs in Iraq!).

Ultimately it will be dissuasive to traveling to the USA. Will the
European reciprocate? How would American travelers reaction to
intrusive investigation of their travel plans. I personally don`t
think European Governments want to repress tourism so will not do
this. BUT, they might in retaliation.

All this will unfold in the next year.

Earl



It had already dissuaded us before our three long visits to France this
year.
Those trips were so wonderful that we really can see no attraction in
travelling to the USA with all that that involves.

To drive two hours to P&O North Sea Ferries, sleep in a club class
cabin with TV and free, yes free, minibar, dine in the Quatre Saisons
restaurant,
disembark after a good night's sleep and then drive through Belgium
into France, where we stayed in the best hotels we have ever visited,
all at half the cost of last year's trip to the USA, was, well, the
best.

I cannot overpraise P&O, the hotels, the roads, etc.

And we had no hassle with passport officers, customs and no contact, of
course, with intrusive immigration officers.

WE are already planning next year's trips.


--
Marie Lewis

In article , Ann B.
writes

Having just returned from a trip to The EU earlier this week, I was
quite upset that when I arrived in Paris (the 1st part of my trip) and
went through immigration the Officer refused to stamp my passport. He
simply looked at it; he didn't scan it into a machine - just looked at
it. There was no immigration card given out on the flight over from
NY. So in effect there was no record (asside from plane records) that
I was in fact in France. I could go anywhere from there without
leaving an audit trail. And worse, anyone can enter that country
untracked. It did not make me feel comfortable or safe while visiting
there.

Why? Are you so conditioned by American fears?
When I left it was the same - no recording of my leaving. I
told the US Customs agent of this on my return home and he was quite
surprised.

What gives with France??


It is a civilised country.
--
Marie Lewis

In article ,
Ann B. wrote:

Having just returned from a trip to The EU earlier this week, I was
quite upset that when I arrived in Paris (the 1st part of my trip) and
went through immigration the Officer refused to stamp my passport. He
simply looked at it; he didn't scan it into a machine - just looked at
it. There was no immigration card given out on the flight over from
NY. So in effect there was no record (asside from plane records) that
I was in fact in France. I could go anywhere from there without
leaving an audit trail. And worse, anyone can enter that country
untracked. It did not make me feel comfortable or safe while visiting
there. When I left it was the same - no recording of my leaving. I
told the US Customs agent of this on my return home and he was quite
surprised.

What gives with France??



Gee Ann, this is like asking, "My husband didn't beat me this morning.
What's wrong with him?"

Ivan

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:07:44 GMT, Ann B. wrote:

Perhaps
having watched the WTC towers come down 1/2 mile away from my office
has jaded my thinking!

By jove, she's got it !


--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:30:43 GMT, (Jim Ley) wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:27:34 GMT, Ann B.
wrote:
Having just returned from a trip to The EU earlier this week, I was
quite upset that when I arrived in Paris (the 1st part of my trip) and
went through immigration the Officer refused to stamp my passport. He
simply looked at it; he didn't scan it into a machine - just looked at
it. There was no immigration card given out on the flight over from
NY. So in effect there was no record (asside from plane records) that
I was in fact in France. I could go anywhere from there without
leaving an audit trail. And worse, anyone can enter that country
untracked.

No, not anyone, certain people with valid US passports arriving from
the US - that's not quite the same as "anyone".

Exactly what sort of procedures would you want? Why do you feel the
knowledge that you're in France is different to the knowledge that
you're in California, or are your countrymen so untrustworthy that US
citizens shouldn't be allowed anywhere?

Jim.

I've been travelling to France (and other places also) for decades.
This 'no record' procedure is new. They always used to record you're
entry into tyhe country (yes, mine too - a non-threatening American
woman). Seems like they've overreacted to American tightening of
security. I wouldn't want to rely on the judgement of a perhaps
sleepy, perhaps ill customs immigration officer on who to record or
not record. Too easy for undesirables to slip past them. Perhaps
having watched the WTC towers come down 1/2 mile away from my office
has jaded my thinking!

As an afterthought, upon entering Ireland and England after France my
passport was stamped.

Cheers,
Ann

To email: replace 'REMOVE' with 'b' in email address.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:07:44 GMT, Ann B.
wrote:

I've been travelling to France (and other places also) for decades.
This 'no record' procedure is new. They always used to record you're
entry into tyhe country (yes, mine too - a non-threatening American
woman). Seems like they've overreacted to American tightening of
security.

Unlikely, what's more likely is that they've learnt more about where
risk comes from and are managing risk much better, I'm sure it's got
nothing to do with relying on NY exit security.

I wouldn't want to rely on the judgement of a perhaps
sleepy, perhaps ill customs immigration officer on who to record or
not record.

could you explain what a passport stamp gives to increase security?

Jim.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:16:47 GMT, (Jim Ley) wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:07:44 GMT, Ann B.
wrote:

I've been travelling to France (and other places also) for decades.
This 'no record' procedure is new. They always used to record you're
entry into tyhe country (yes, mine too - a non-threatening American
woman). Seems like they've overreacted to American tightening of
security.

Unlikely, what's more likely is that they've learnt more about where
risk comes from and are managing risk much better, I'm sure it's got
nothing to do with relying on NY exit security.

I wouldn't want to rely on the judgement of a perhaps
sleepy, perhaps ill customs immigration officer on who to record or
not record.

could you explain what a passport stamp gives to increase security?

Jim.

An audit trail.

Cheers,
Ann

To email: replace 'REMOVE' with 'b' in email address.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:22:05 GMT, Ann B.
wrote:
could you explain what a passport stamp gives to increase security?

An audit trail.

So when you "lose" your passport the audit completely disappears, that
seems kind of pointless.

You're relying on the audit trail to be entirely in the possession of
the person, that's entirely pointless.

Jim.