Lengthening, of Enchantment of the Seas!

Charles wrote:

In article . net,
Benjamin Smith wrote:


Some posters have taken their first cruise, a few on Celebrity, and
have found it underwhelming and not the quality experience they were
expecting and I wonder if they had sailed the Celebrity of the early
90s if they would have found cruising as underwhelming. While that
standard may have proven impossible to sustain and be profitable,
Celebrity hasn't established a quality middle ground and its
reputation as a line is falling.


I think they might have found it underwhelming because they were
expecting more.

Exactly. And part of that has to do with their lofty claims and resting
on their laurels while decreasing the quality of their cuisine and using
the specialty restuarants as the way to Celebrity's usual cuisine.


In my opinion there has always been some undeserved
hype about Celebrity which is not realistic to expect from a mass
market line.

OK, but you have to realize that much of the hype was from Celebrity
customers sailing the Meridian and early Zenith and Horizon. By the time
the Century ships were sailing some of the quality already was down.
But, it was still high enough (with some inconsistency) to have
something of a lead in the market and around the mid 90s Celebrity
became more the mass market line than the smaller, more affordable
"taste of luxury" line that Chandris ran. Chandris didn't run a
profitable business, so compromises had to be made, but the level of
cuisine on Celebrity now doesn't impress yet Celebrity claims to offer
the award-winning cuisine of Michel Roux that they offered in the early
90s. So, it is the reputation they built in their early years that they
are resting on yet people who have been with the line from that time
know better.


I don't see that their reputation is falling. I actually
feel they have improved over the last two years.


Carnival's food is rated higher by many familiar with both lines not
only on rtc but on other boards as well and by TAs I know. Celebrity
improved in entertainment, offering amenities in new ships, but not at
all in cuisine or ship maintenance. A few years ago people going on the
Zenith or Horizon would rarely report of the ships being dirty or worn.
These days these comments aren't so unusual. And one of the reasons for
improvement in service in the last 2 years is the freezing of buying new
ships. When the new Millie ships were introduced complaints about
substandard service were common, not unlike the complaints about service
on HAL's Zuiderdam (Vista) ships.

Ben S.

Charles wrote:

In article . net,
Benjamin Smith wrote:


Some posters have taken their first cruise, a few on Celebrity, and
have found it underwhelming and not the quality experience they were
expecting and I wonder if they had sailed the Celebrity of the early
90s if they would have found cruising as underwhelming. While that
standard may have proven impossible to sustain and be profitable,
Celebrity hasn't established a quality middle ground and its
reputation as a line is falling.


I think they might have found it underwhelming because they were
expecting more.

Exactly. And part of that has to do with their lofty claims and resting
on their laurels while decreasing the quality of their cuisine and using
the specialty restuarants as the way to Celebrity's usual cuisine.


In my opinion there has always been some undeserved
hype about Celebrity which is not realistic to expect from a mass
market line.

OK, but you have to realize that much of the hype was from Celebrity
customers sailing the Meridian and early Zenith and Horizon. By the time
the Century ships were sailing some of the quality already was down.
But, it was still high enough (with some inconsistency) to have
something of a lead in the market and around the mid 90s Celebrity
became more the mass market line than the smaller, more affordable
"taste of luxury" line that Chandris ran. Chandris didn't run a
profitable business, so compromises had to be made, but the level of
cuisine on Celebrity now doesn't impress yet Celebrity claims to offer
the award-winning cuisine of Michel Roux that they offered in the early
90s. So, it is the reputation they built in their early years that they
are resting on yet people who have been with the line from that time
know better.


I don't see that their reputation is falling. I actually
feel they have improved over the last two years.


Carnival's food is rated higher by many familiar with both lines not
only on rtc but on other boards as well and by TAs I know. Celebrity
improved in entertainment, offering amenities in new ships, but not at
all in cuisine or ship maintenance. A few years ago people going on the
Zenith or Horizon would rarely report of the ships being dirty or worn.
These days these comments aren't so unusual. And one of the reasons for
improvement in service in the last 2 years is the freezing of buying new
ships. When the new Millie ships were introduced complaints about
substandard service were common, not unlike the complaints about service
on HAL's Zuiderdam (Vista) ships.

Ben S.

In article t,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

In light of recent discussions, this is certainly an undesirable change.
Most of what's being added into these 6,500 tons of space (e.g. over
300 passengers, extra fee restaurant and coffee bar, "art gallery") are
cookie cutter, revenue enhancers. Another beautiful ship hits the dust.


I agree. Well stated.

I just read another thread about the lenghening on Cruise Critic.
Interesting thread. They seem to favor the idea there. Particularly
EKR, Ernie Roller!!!
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=60111

Also Ernie posts a link to a picture of before and after
http://63.217.28.3/images/other2/enchantment_kvaerner_big.jpg

Also someone in the thread suggests that the Celebrity Century class
will also be lengthened.

--
Charles

In article t,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

In light of recent discussions, this is certainly an undesirable change.
Most of what's being added into these 6,500 tons of space (e.g. over
300 passengers, extra fee restaurant and coffee bar, "art gallery") are
cookie cutter, revenue enhancers. Another beautiful ship hits the dust.


I agree. Well stated.

I just read another thread about the lenghening on Cruise Critic.
Interesting thread. They seem to favor the idea there. Particularly
EKR, Ernie Roller!!!
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=60111

Also Ernie posts a link to a picture of before and after
http://63.217.28.3/images/other2/enchantment_kvaerner_big.jpg

Also someone in the thread suggests that the Celebrity Century class
will also be lengthened.

--
Charles

In article t,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

In light of recent discussions, this is certainly an undesirable change.
Most of what's being added into these 6,500 tons of space (e.g. over
300 passengers, extra fee restaurant and coffee bar, "art gallery") are
cookie cutter, revenue enhancers. Another beautiful ship hits the dust.


I agree. Well stated.

I just read another thread about the lenghening on Cruise Critic.
Interesting thread. They seem to favor the idea there. Particularly
EKR, Ernie Roller!!!
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=60111

Also Ernie posts a link to a picture of before and after
http://63.217.28.3/images/other2/enchantment_kvaerner_big.jpg

Also someone in the thread suggests that the Celebrity Century class
will also be lengthened.

--
Charles

Tom & Linda wrote:

"Benjamin Smith" wrote in message
ink.net...


and be profitable, Celebrity hasn't established a quality middle ground
and its reputation as a line is falling.


Based on what?

Ships are sailing full. Many itineraries (like Europe, Alaska and Bermuda)
are commanding high pricing. They are trying new things like the 2 small
ships.

What's failing? I don't get your comment at all?

I think the Millie class of ships are a major success.

People like Jeff C and I love them. And to me, lack of a dance floor that
would otherwise rarely get used dosn't make them failures. And being 90,000
tons doesn't make them failures. I think they are the best ships out there.
Not failures at all.


Falling, not failing. Both of you guys said you'd love to see Celebrity
return to quality dining food. The line needs to vary their menus and
improve the cuisine's quality of ingredients, presentation, and
consistency. Serving for some high number is not an excuse, they need to
strategically figure out how to bring the food level up. Also, that
special Celebrity touch of tableside service would also be welcome. They
need to distinguish this for the sense of matching their hype, if not
anything else.

Ben S.

--Tom

Tom & Linda wrote:

"Benjamin Smith" wrote in message
ink.net...


and be profitable, Celebrity hasn't established a quality middle ground
and its reputation as a line is falling.


Based on what?

Ships are sailing full. Many itineraries (like Europe, Alaska and Bermuda)
are commanding high pricing. They are trying new things like the 2 small
ships.

What's failing? I don't get your comment at all?

I think the Millie class of ships are a major success.

People like Jeff C and I love them. And to me, lack of a dance floor that
would otherwise rarely get used dosn't make them failures. And being 90,000
tons doesn't make them failures. I think they are the best ships out there.
Not failures at all.


Falling, not failing. Both of you guys said you'd love to see Celebrity
return to quality dining food. The line needs to vary their menus and
improve the cuisine's quality of ingredients, presentation, and
consistency. Serving for some high number is not an excuse, they need to
strategically figure out how to bring the food level up. Also, that
special Celebrity touch of tableside service would also be welcome. They
need to distinguish this for the sense of matching their hype, if not
anything else.

Ben S.

--Tom

Tom & Linda wrote:

"Benjamin Smith" wrote in message
ink.net...


and be profitable, Celebrity hasn't established a quality middle ground
and its reputation as a line is falling.


Based on what?

Ships are sailing full. Many itineraries (like Europe, Alaska and Bermuda)
are commanding high pricing. They are trying new things like the 2 small
ships.

What's failing? I don't get your comment at all?

I think the Millie class of ships are a major success.

People like Jeff C and I love them. And to me, lack of a dance floor that
would otherwise rarely get used dosn't make them failures. And being 90,000
tons doesn't make them failures. I think they are the best ships out there.
Not failures at all.


Falling, not failing. Both of you guys said you'd love to see Celebrity
return to quality dining food. The line needs to vary their menus and
improve the cuisine's quality of ingredients, presentation, and
consistency. Serving for some high number is not an excuse, they need to
strategically figure out how to bring the food level up. Also, that
special Celebrity touch of tableside service would also be welcome. They
need to distinguish this for the sense of matching their hype, if not
anything else.

Ben S.

--Tom

"Charles" wrote in message
d...
I just read another thread about the lenghening on Cruise Critic.
Interesting thread. They seem to favor the idea there. Particularly
EKR, Ernie Roller!!!
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=60111

Also Ernie posts a link to a picture of before and after
http://63.217.28.3/images/other2/enchantment_kvaerner_big.jpg

Also someone in the thread suggests that the Celebrity Century class
will also be lengthened.

--
Charles



In general I don't mind lengthening projects for mass-market ships. The new
mid-section adds a proportionate amount of deck space, public lounges,
cabins, and crew areas. What I don't condone is adding an entire deck as in
the case of CARIBBEAN PRINCESS. In this instance, over 250 cabins were
added but NO additional public space, crew areas, or deck space was added.
A win for Princess Cruises and increased revenue, but a loss for the
passenger who receives less space than other similar Grand Class ships.

I am all for Royal Caribbean investing in older tonnage. These are not just
cosmetic cover-ups that so many other cruise lines perform, but complete
makeovers which bring older tonnage up to date with the latest ship in the
fleet. It's a chance to add signature lounges like Bolero's and branding
projects like Seattle's Best Coffee. It's perfect for the market these
ships are geared for, and by making them "new again", RCI should also be
able to increase per diems, or at the very least sustain them.

I applaud RCI for taking the initiative to invest in what they've already
got. Too many other lines are concentrated only on what the next new ship
is, meanwhile the older ships are looking worn and tired. This move also
makes good economic sense for Royal Caribbean. I believe the expense for the
lengthening is about ?45. That equates to approximately ?149,000 per berth.
I believe this is much cheaper than building a vessel from scratch. If you
look at QM2, my rough calculations put the per berth cost at just over
$300,000. I think most ships are somewhere around $200,000 to $280,000 per
berth. So it would seem that stretching is a relative bargain.

If RCI does the same procedure to all four Vision Class ships (which I
imagine they eventually will), they will increase capacity by 1208 berths,
or about that of a smaller to mid-sized cruise ship. The other advantage is
the short amount of time the ship will actually be out of service compared
to that of building a new ship from scratch. This means RCI can see a return
on the investment almost immediately. I would also imagine the financing is
a bit more attractive then a newbuild, and the lower cost helps RCI from
increasing it's debt, which is already quite high.

Ernie

"Charles" wrote in message
d...
I just read another thread about the lenghening on Cruise Critic.
Interesting thread. They seem to favor the idea there. Particularly
EKR, Ernie Roller!!!
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=60111

Also Ernie posts a link to a picture of before and after
http://63.217.28.3/images/other2/enchantment_kvaerner_big.jpg

Also someone in the thread suggests that the Celebrity Century class
will also be lengthened.

--
Charles



In general I don't mind lengthening projects for mass-market ships. The new
mid-section adds a proportionate amount of deck space, public lounges,
cabins, and crew areas. What I don't condone is adding an entire deck as in
the case of CARIBBEAN PRINCESS. In this instance, over 250 cabins were
added but NO additional public space, crew areas, or deck space was added.
A win for Princess Cruises and increased revenue, but a loss for the
passenger who receives less space than other similar Grand Class ships.

I am all for Royal Caribbean investing in older tonnage. These are not just
cosmetic cover-ups that so many other cruise lines perform, but complete
makeovers which bring older tonnage up to date with the latest ship in the
fleet. It's a chance to add signature lounges like Bolero's and branding
projects like Seattle's Best Coffee. It's perfect for the market these
ships are geared for, and by making them "new again", RCI should also be
able to increase per diems, or at the very least sustain them.

I applaud RCI for taking the initiative to invest in what they've already
got. Too many other lines are concentrated only on what the next new ship
is, meanwhile the older ships are looking worn and tired. This move also
makes good economic sense for Royal Caribbean. I believe the expense for the
lengthening is about ?45. That equates to approximately ?149,000 per berth.
I believe this is much cheaper than building a vessel from scratch. If you
look at QM2, my rough calculations put the per berth cost at just over
$300,000. I think most ships are somewhere around $200,000 to $280,000 per
berth. So it would seem that stretching is a relative bargain.

If RCI does the same procedure to all four Vision Class ships (which I
imagine they eventually will), they will increase capacity by 1208 berths,
or about that of a smaller to mid-sized cruise ship. The other advantage is
the short amount of time the ship will actually be out of service compared
to that of building a new ship from scratch. This means RCI can see a return
on the investment almost immediately. I would also imagine the financing is
a bit more attractive then a newbuild, and the lower cost helps RCI from
increasing it's debt, which is already quite high.

Ernie