US Air back in Chapter 11

(x-posted to rec.travel.air, to get some perspective from the air side
of things)
(Jeff nor Lisa) wrote in message . com...
"Stephen Sprunk" wrote

Who cares about inflation? Amtrak charges the same price or more, compared
to its current competitors (airlines) for slower, less frequent, and less
reliable service. It's certainly more comfortable and more interesting, but
business travellers pay the bills and outside the NEC Amtrak rarely meets
the needs of that market segment.

Amtrak must be meeting somebody's needs because it is carrying more
passengers than ever; and this is despite lousy track congestion in
the west.

As to business travelers, I've met plenty on long distance trains.
For example, there are groups of business people travelling together,
using the train as a rolling conference center, away from the
distractions of the office. Other passengers from intermediate
points travel on business.

without business travel, Amtrak has no hope of breaking even on an operating
basis, much less paying back capital costs.

Amtrak was never nor is now supposed to break even. Nor are highways
and airways. US Air owes millions of dollars to the pension fund
that we taxpayers will have to pick up. US Air screwed some airports
that local taxpayers had to pick up. The subsidies come from different
places, but air and roads get subsidies just the same.

As I mentioned previously, air is faster for long-hauls. For
short-to-medium length trips, rail can be quite competitive time-wise,
considering how air usu requires a connection, plus the fact that
airports tend to be out-of-the-way places. As to the breaking-even
thing, it's true that passenger rail cannot break even; can anything
else? OTOH, to be fair, roads do stimulate economic development.
Passenger rail may too, but perhaps not to that extent, at least for
intercity rail. Also, in all fairness, no one is saying that US
Airways's performance is somehow OK, and neither is Delta or any of
the troubled airlines. Purely in terms of economics, the numbers I
would like to see are the total number of dollars spent per passenger
by the govt for air vs rail, when one factors in the cost-recovery
from user fees. To be fair, plane tickets have a bundle of taxes built
into them, but I believe they do not cover all the expenses involved.
It's true that from an economic point-of-view, the most efficient
stuff should stay, and the less efficient be replaced. FWI, a few
months ago the head of ultra-efficient Southwest Airlines was
complaining about the high tax load that airlines are shouldering
these days. But it seems even those high taxes don't pay for what they
require.

Later,
Nelson Chen

---
3W Encryption Utility is a Javascript encryption program that allows
one to store PINs and the like securely online, and access them from
anywhere in the world. For more info, please check out
http://www.3wmart.com/blowfish/sellprog.htm

(x-posted to rec.travel.air, to get some perspective from the air side
of things)
(Jeff nor Lisa) wrote in message . com...
"Stephen Sprunk" wrote

Who cares about inflation? Amtrak charges the same price or more, compared
to its current competitors (airlines) for slower, less frequent, and less
reliable service. It's certainly more comfortable and more interesting, but
business travellers pay the bills and outside the NEC Amtrak rarely meets
the needs of that market segment.

Amtrak must be meeting somebody's needs because it is carrying more
passengers than ever; and this is despite lousy track congestion in
the west.

As to business travelers, I've met plenty on long distance trains.
For example, there are groups of business people travelling together,
using the train as a rolling conference center, away from the
distractions of the office. Other passengers from intermediate
points travel on business.

without business travel, Amtrak has no hope of breaking even on an operating
basis, much less paying back capital costs.

Amtrak was never nor is now supposed to break even. Nor are highways
and airways. US Air owes millions of dollars to the pension fund
that we taxpayers will have to pick up. US Air screwed some airports
that local taxpayers had to pick up. The subsidies come from different
places, but air and roads get subsidies just the same.

As I mentioned previously, air is faster for long-hauls. For
short-to-medium length trips, rail can be quite competitive time-wise,
considering how air usu requires a connection, plus the fact that
airports tend to be out-of-the-way places. As to the breaking-even
thing, it's true that passenger rail cannot break even; can anything
else? OTOH, to be fair, roads do stimulate economic development.
Passenger rail may too, but perhaps not to that extent, at least for
intercity rail. Also, in all fairness, no one is saying that US
Airways's performance is somehow OK, and neither is Delta or any of
the troubled airlines. Purely in terms of economics, the numbers I
would like to see are the total number of dollars spent per passenger
by the govt for air vs rail, when one factors in the cost-recovery
from user fees. To be fair, plane tickets have a bundle of taxes built
into them, but I believe they do not cover all the expenses involved.
It's true that from an economic point-of-view, the most efficient
stuff should stay, and the less efficient be replaced. FWI, a few
months ago the head of ultra-efficient Southwest Airlines was
complaining about the high tax load that airlines are shouldering
these days. But it seems even those high taxes don't pay for what they
require.

Later,
Nelson Chen

---
3W Encryption Utility is a Javascript encryption program that allows
one to store PINs and the like securely online, and access them from
anywhere in the world. For more info, please check out
http://www.3wmart.com/blowfish/sellprog.htm

Nelson Chen wrote:
Amtrak must be meeting somebody's needs because it is carrying more
passengers than ever; and this is despite lousy track congestion in
the west.

That is because of the lousy treatment of passengers by airlines due to cost
cutting, and by airports due to politically mandated visible measures to make
it look like airport are secure.

The airplane may be faster, but if you must be at airport 2 hours before a
flight, this greatly adds to the overhead in short haul flights.

thing, it's true that passenger rail cannot break even; can anything
else?

For what it is worth, the airline industry over long term isn't profitable,
with a few exceptions for well runned airlines such as Southwest.

In France, the TGV actually makes a profit and these funds greatly help in
expanding the TGV network, but conventional rail doesn't make money. However,
the government still has a LOT of input in ensuring new TGV lines can be built
(consider just obtaining the right of way).

would like to see are the total number of dollars spent per passenger
by the govt for air vs rail, when one factors in the cost-recovery
from user fees.

This is very hard to measure, especially when you consider some airport are
owned by the minicipality, some owned by government but operated by some
separate non-profit organisation, and some by the government itself.

In article , nobody wrote:

This is very hard to measure, especially when you consider some airport are
owned by the minicipality, some owned by government but operated by some
separate non-profit organisation, and some by the government itself.


And, if I understand the history of the network correctly, the costs of
the various and sundry radar installations that are basically the airline
equivalent of the right of way costs come out of the department of
defense, don't they?

--
-Glennl
e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after brasil.

In article , nobody wrote:

This is very hard to measure, especially when you consider some airport are
owned by the minicipality, some owned by government but operated by some
separate non-profit organisation, and some by the government itself.


And, if I understand the history of the network correctly, the costs of
the various and sundry radar installations that are basically the airline
equivalent of the right of way costs come out of the department of
defense, don't they?

--
-Glennl
e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after brasil.