Ticket Revoked By El-Al

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:56:36 +0200, Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On 17 Feb 2004 03:08:06 -0800 (Rubey Vogle) wrote:

:I bought 4 tickets from London to Israel on El-Al from gorillaair.com
:I even received the tickets and had seat assignments. The flight is in
:6 weeks.

:El-Al just called me up and told me they're canceling my tickets due
:to overbooking and placing me on standby. This will end up costing me
:thousands of dollars as now I have to either miss a week of work or
:rebook at double the price.

:Can they do this?

Yes.

They can try.

Can they get away with it? Depends on their agreement with gorillaair.com.

Rather, depends upon (1) the laws that apply. If in North America or the
EU, there are mandatory penalties/compensation rules. They can't just
"cancel" a confirmed reservation just like that.

But then of course, intimidation is intimidation.

Six weeks from now is the
Passover season. Always very crowded.

So? Is that a reason for trying to evade a contract?

At any rate, the people you should be pushing are gorillaair.com. They
are your agent.

No. They are the agent of the airline. But yes, they are supposed to be
the first line of defense.

(This said, the story itself doesn't quite smell right.)

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:56:36 +0200, Binyamin Dissen
wrote:

They are
your agent.

Are you sure they are not the airline's agent? In the US at least,
they sign an agency agreement with the airlines with IATA as an
intermediary.

The more interesting issue is the question of who gets bumped. The OP
stated that he had a seat assignment. Thus, at the point of the
booking, the flight wasn't overbooked or, at least, he had no such
expectation. Suddenly the airline says they have passengers that they
like better who they want to put in his seats. I wonder how they
decided who would get bumped. Did they just get a better priced offer
after they had sold the seats? Sounds fishy to me. FFM

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , Gunnar Evermann
writes

http://www.airgorilla.com/terms.html#spontaneous


:-)
however none of this applies in this situation. El-Al didn't cancel
the flight they just bumped the original poster of the flight.


The paragraph I quoted goes on to say you might get bumped, and that
once again "This is between you and the airline."

It is my understanding that they are not allowed to do this without
paying the denied boarding compansation (DBC) defined by law.


Perhaps so. Although there's quite a difference between being bumped on
the day, and six weeks in advance.

Reading the OP's posting again, the airline is talking about "standby"
and the OP about "missing a week's work". Do they only fly once a week,
and why does the OP think he won't get a standby seat on the original
flight, but will get one a week later? Or have they offered him a
definite seat, but only a week later? Or is his trip only for a week,
and missing the first flight means he just can't go at all?

And if the flight's full, how can he get a seat at "double the price" -
will the airline be forced to bump another low price passenger, or is
that with a different airline?

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:43:37 +0200, Binyamin Dissen
wrote:


:http://www.airgorilla.com/terms.html#spontaneous

They are attempting to cover themselves.

They are the ones who issued the ticket.

They are the ones who are on the firing line.

They cannot dodge the responsibility by adding something to their T&C unless
the airline agrees to it.

Dissen seems busy protecting El Al, here.

Travel AGENTS act as AGENTS for the airline (assuming the tickets are
normal scheduled tickets and not consolidated). This is why Travel
AGENTS issue tickets on an airline's ticket stock: they are legally
doing nothing more than saying "Passenger, meet airline; airline, this
is passenger" (in theory, anyway).

If you tickets had a status of "OK", El Al is on the hook for
something. I'd first call El Al back and ask, nicely, to speak to
someone about this, and find out what the issue is (is it simple
overbooking, equipment substitution, flight cancellation?)

Malc.

The ticket is for Virgin to UK and EL-AL to Israel.
If it makes any difference, I'm a UK citizen.

rw

Malcolm Loades wrote in message ...
In message , Rubey
Vogle writes
I bought 4 tickets from London to Israel on El-Al from gorillaair.com

[message trunced]

How did you manage to book that flight with gorillaair? Their website
clearly states "All Fares in US$ / Departure must begin in USA/Canada".
Do you mean London, Ontario?

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:01:57 -0800 Malcolm Weir wrote:

:On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:43:37 +0200, Binyamin Dissen
wrote:

::http://www.airgorilla.com/terms.html#spontaneous

:They are attempting to cover themselves.

:They are the ones who issued the ticket.

:They are the ones who are on the firing line.

:They cannot dodge the responsibility by adding something to their T&C unless
:the airline agrees to it.

:Dissen seems busy protecting El Al, here.

Not particularly - I would say the same about any airline.

:Travel AGENTS act as AGENTS for the airline (assuming the tickets are
:normal scheduled tickets and not consolidated). This is why Travel
:AGENTS issue tickets on an airline's ticket stock: they are legally
:doing nothing more than saying "Passenger, meet airline; airline, this
:is passenger" (in theory, anyway).

Assuming all rules were followed and nothing special is within the contract.

:If you tickets had a status of "OK", El Al is on the hook for
:something. I'd first call El Al back and ask, nicely, to speak to
:someone about this, and find out what the issue is (is it simple
:overbooking, equipment substitution, flight cancellation?)

I would expect that there will be schedule changes near the time.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Hi Binyamin & ULF and thanks for the replies,

2 Questions:

1) ULF - what does "earliest opportunity" mean. What if EL-AL tells me
the next next available flight with 4 spots is in a month?

2) Binyamin - You say I should go after gorilla. Is ULF wrong? Am I
not protected by EU law? Also how do I find out what my rights are
vis-a-vis Gorilla? What if they continue to tell me that it is not
their problem.

Gorilla says that EL-AL claims they have a 24-hour price cancellation
policy and that they (Gorilla) has never heard of such a thing.

Thanks Again,

rw



Binyamin Dissen wrote in message . ..
On 17 Feb 2004 03:08:06 -0800 (Rubey Vogle) wrote:

:I bought 4 tickets from London to Israel on El-Al from gorillaair.com
:I even received the tickets and had seat assignments. The flight is in
:6 weeks.

:El-Al just called me up and told me they're canceling my tickets due
:to overbooking and placing me on standby. This will end up costing me
:thousands of dollars as now I have to either miss a week of work or
:rebook at double the price.

:Can they do this?

Yes.

Can they get away with it? Depends on their agreement with gorillaair.com.

Six weeks from now is the Passover season. Always very crowded.

At any rate, the people you should be pushing are gorillaair.com. They are
your agent.

On 17 Feb 2004 09:47:03 -0800 (Rubey Vogle) wrote:

:Hi Binyamin & ULF and thanks for the replies,

:2 Questions:

:1) ULF - what does "earliest opportunity" mean. What if EL-AL tells me
:the next next available flight with 4 spots is in a month?

They typically have overloads, especially then.

Play hardball.

:2) Binyamin - You say I should go after gorilla. Is ULF wrong? Am I
:not protected by EU law? Also how do I find out what my rights are
:vis-a-vis Gorilla? What if they continue to tell me that it is not
:their problem.

Try all avenues.

Apply enough pressure and ELAL will bump someone else.

:Gorilla says that EL-AL claims they have a 24-hour price cancellation
:policy and that they (Gorilla) has never heard of such a thing.

Oh.

The plot thickens.

:Binyamin Dissen wrote in message . ..
: On 17 Feb 2004 03:08:06 -0800 (Rubey Vogle) wrote:

: :I bought 4 tickets from London to Israel on El-Al from gorillaair.com
: :I even received the tickets and had seat assignments. The flight is in
: :6 weeks.

: :El-Al just called me up and told me they're canceling my tickets due
: :to overbooking and placing me on standby. This will end up costing me
: :thousands of dollars as now I have to either miss a week of work or
: :rebook at double the price.

: :Can they do this?

: Yes.

: Can they get away with it? Depends on their agreement with gorillaair.com.

: Six weeks from now is the Passover season. Always very crowded.

: At any rate, the people you should be pushing are gorillaair.com. They are
: your agent.

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , Gunnar Evermann
writes
http://www.airgorilla.com/terms.html#spontaneous

:-)
however none of this applies in this situation. El-Al didn't cancel
the flight they just bumped the original poster of the flight.

The paragraph I quoted goes on to say you might get bumped, and that
once again "This is between you and the airline."


This is not being 'bumped'

bumping is what happens to you when you get to the airport
and find that the plane is overbooked.

Cancelling an already confirmed ticket and selling the seat to
another punter at a higher price is not called bumping,
it's called fraud.

My guess is that the OP didn't have a confirmed reservation and
his beef is with the agent

tim





It is my understanding that they are not allowed to do this without
paying the denied boarding compansation (DBC) defined by law.

Perhaps so. Although there's quite a difference between being bumped on
the day, and six weeks in advance.

Reading the OP's posting again, the airline is talking about "standby"
and the OP about "missing a week's work". Do they only fly once a week,
and why does the OP think he won't get a standby seat on the original
flight, but will get one a week later? Or have they offered him a
definite seat, but only a week later? Or is his trip only for a week,
and missing the first flight means he just can't go at all?

And if the flight's full, how can he get a seat at "double the price" -
will the airline be forced to bump another low price passenger, or is
that with a different airline?
--
Roland Perry

Rubey Vogle wrote:

The ticket is for Virgin to UK and EL-AL to Israel.
If it makes any difference, I'm a UK citizen.


But why did you say you would lose "thousands of dollars"?