The Serbian experience

Make credence recognised that on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:37 +0100,
(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) has scripted:

Deeply Filled Mortician
wrote:

Make credence recognised that on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:12:25 +0100,
(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) has scripted:

Lars wrote:

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:03:17 +0100, (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...

Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.

Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?

Don't ever criticise me for making generalisations again!

It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.

)
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:37 +0100, (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?

It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.

Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.

As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
****less by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.

Sweden was ill equipped and in no position to take on the Nazis. So we
attempted to be neutral and stay out of the war.

It was not that the Nazis took the train to invade Norway. But when
the occupation was already a fait accompli the Nazis demanded free
passage through the neutral Sweden for their soldiers when they needed
to go back to Germany for holidays. The Swedes probably felt they did
not have much of a choice at the time. It is easy enough to say
afterwards that it should not have been accepted, and most of us
who were not there think it is a dark spot on our history.
Many Norwegian resistance troops were trained and equipped in Sweden.

With us not being occupied we did serve as a place of refuge for
practically all the jews from Norway and Denmark. Later on also from
Hungary and other countries (Wallenberg). Plus thousands of Finnish
children who came to stay for years in Sweden during the war.

The Finns unfortunately, ended up on the wrong side in the war. But
children are children and should not be held resonsible for tough
choices their parents have had to take when confronted by a formidable
foe.


Lars
Stockholm

"Lars" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:37 +0100, (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?

It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.

Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.

As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
****less by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.

Sweden was ill equipped and in no position to take on the Nazis. So we
attempted to be neutral and stay out of the war.

It was not that the Nazis took the train to invade Norway. But when
the occupation was already a fait accompli the Nazis demanded free
passage through the neutral Sweden for their soldiers when they needed
to go back to Germany for holidays. The Swedes probably felt they did
not have much of a choice at the time. It is easy enough to say
afterwards that it should not have been accepted, and most of us
who were not there think it is a dark spot on our history.
Many Norwegian resistance troops were trained and equipped in Sweden.

With us not being occupied we did serve as a place of refuge for
practically all the jews from Norway and Denmark. Later on also from
Hungary and other countries (Wallenberg). Plus thousands of Finnish
children who came to stay for years in Sweden during the war.

The Finns unfortunately, ended up on the wrong side in the war. But
children are children and should not be held resonsible for tough
choices their parents have had to take when confronted by a formidable
foe.


Lars
Stockholm

Let me add that Ireland and Portugal / Spain were also enutral.
Ireland apparently was a place were crews of German submarines could take a
rest and buy fresh food,

Portugal and Spain, though neutral., were favoruing the German regime.

as to Yougoslavia. nobody talks about th etnical cleansing
that happened there after the war.
about 350.000 venetian dialect speaking italians were thrown out and lost
all their properties.. Statistics say about 20 to 30.000 civilians were
killed by yougoslav troops.

But in those times.. it was necessary to keep Yougoslavia
as a cushion state between the two blocks.
More recently. a part of Italy after the war was given to the British
administration ( Zone A ) and to the Yougoslav administration (Zone B)..

Zone A was given back to Italy a few years later.. Zone B was annexed to
Yougoslavia .. in spite of the peace treaty of Paris.
and again nobody did anything.

It took a lot of years and a new treaty ( Treaty of Osimo ) to settle this
violation of the peace treaty.

It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,

Lars wrote:

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:37 +0100, (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?

It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.

Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.

As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
****less by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.

Whatever. Your excusing Sweden's collective world war 2 cowardice to one
side, I don't 'blame' Swedes for anything- but you were the one bringing
nazis into this, and telling people not to visit Serbia. People in glass
houses shouldn't throw stones, and Europe is littered with
conservatories...

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

tile wrote:

[]
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,

It is also to note that you can't move on the Istrian coast in the
summer without bumping into holidaying Italians. Italian schools are the
most popular now in Istria, all street name signs on the peninsula are
bilingual (Croatian/Italian) and Italian is the de facto second language
in the region. The Italian historical relationship with Croatia and,
Istria in particular, is complex. Somehow, your one-sided portrayal of
it above doesn't suprise me.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" ha scritto nel
messaggio ...
tile wrote:

[]
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does
not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians
to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,

It is also to note that you can't move on the Istrian coast in the
summer without bumping into holidaying Italians. Italian schools are the
most popular now in Istria, all street name signs on the peninsula are
bilingual (Croatian/Italian) and Italian is the de facto second language
in the region. The Italian historical relationship with Croatia and,
Istria in particular, is complex. Somehow, your one-sided portrayal of
it above doesn't suprise me.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

well.. of course..
because of the Peace treaty of Paris.,it was compulsory to protect the
minorities.
So in Istria it was compulsory to have bilingual names and so on. (see tha
in Italy you have bilingual schools and bilingual names near the Slovenian
border.. )
Pity that only about 20.000 venetian dialect speaking Italians remained in
Yougoslavia after the war.

as to Craotia.: Istria and Dalmatia.(coast )
both of them belonged to thew Republic of Venice till the Republic of
venice was conquered by napoleon and SIMPLY sold to Austria. (treaty of
Campoformido )
The official language in these parts was always.. Venetian dialect..
the geografical maps had names ONLY in venetian dialect

the offcial language of the Austrian navy was always Venetian dialect.. The
majority of Istrian inhabitants was Venetian.. and the main towns of the
dalmatian coast were in a great majority inhabited by Venetian speaking
people.
Pls note we are talking about people who had been there for hundreds of
years. not invaders or occupying people. Croatians had never been there..
they were the cheap labour force used by venetians..

that said.. it is a fact that after the Peace treaty of Paris 350.000
Venetian dialect speaking people had to leave the coutnry leaving behind
everything..
between 20.000 to 30.000 civilians were killed for almost no reason.
This year is has been decided to make in Italy a special day as Day of
Remembrance..
to rember those days when speaking an italian dialect was a good enough
reason to be killed.
there was an Irate reaction of the Croatian Prime Minsiter..
again. it is to note that till now it is forbidden for Italians to buy
property in Croatia. ( but not for Austrians and germans )
and again till now the Croatian Government has refused to pay any money as
an indemnity to those people who were obliged to leave if they wanted to
save thier lives.

we are talking about facts. and not about opinions.
I think nobody will ever show that the majority of people living in istria
was not Venetian dialect speaking..
and so were most of the people living in the major towns of Dalmatia. we are
talking for instance of
Fiume
Spalato
Zara
Ragusa..
Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the end
of the war.

so. I find it at least too simple to say that Serbians were or are bad.
Yougoslavia was allowed to make etnichal cleansings for political reasons..
and Croatia itself committed many muirders agains muslim minorities. jsu
recently enoug.
Let me add. for example. that the bridge of Mostar was destroyed by Croatian
only because it was asymbol of Muslim occupation..
a very funny thing.. Croatia has made an issue of stamps
to celebrate Famous Croatians..
among many people who are now turning in their Tombs as they were
considered Croatians.. there is also marco polo.. who according to the
legend was born in Curzola
( Now Korcula in Croatia.. )
Or can you say that marco Polo was Croatian ??

"tile" wrote in message

It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does
not want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for
italians to buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the
properties that were taken without indemnities,

That's not true. Italy and Croatia signed a treaty which guarantees Italians
they can buy property in Croatia and vice versa.

"tile" wrote in message

as to Craotia.: Istria and Dalmatia.(coast )
both of them belonged to thew Republic of Venice till the Republic of
venice was conquered by napoleon and SIMPLY sold to Austria. (treaty of
Campoformido )
The official language in these parts was always.. Venetian dialect..
the geografical maps had names ONLY in venetian dialect

the offcial language of the Austrian navy was always Venetian dialect..
The majority of Istrian inhabitants was Venetian.. and the main towns of
the dalmatian coast were in a great majority inhabited by Venetian
speaking people.
Pls note we are talking about people who had been there for hundreds of
years. not invaders or occupying people. Croatians had never been there..
they were the cheap labour force used by venetians..

You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast of Dalmatia
before the Venetians invaded it. And that Italian (venetian dialect),
Croatian and Latin coexisted for centuries. You should also note the way
they treated the land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied the land just as
Germans have occupied, say, Poland in 1939.

that said.. it is a fact that after the Peace treaty of Paris 350.000
Venetian dialect speaking people had to leave the coutnry leaving behind
everything..
between 20.000 to 30.000 civilians were killed for almost no reason.

That is unfotunately true. Peace treaties and politics don't give a damn
about the people and because of some arrangements made in Paris and London a
lot of people had lost their homes. Besides that, partisans killed a number
of Italian speaking inhabitants of Istria and Slovenia.

This year is has been decided to make in Italy a special day as Day of
Remembrance..
to rember those days when speaking an italian dialect was a good enough
reason to be killed.
there was an Irate reaction of the Croatian Prime Minsiter..

The problem is that Italian fascist politics that began in the 1920-ies led
to murders of non-Italians in the lands they occupied, people were forced to
speak Italian and to change their names. That situation lasted for more than
20 years and after the capitulation of Italy in 1943 and the end of WW2 in
1945 partisans killed Italians out of retribution.

Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the
end of the war.

Yeah right. Take Fiume (present-day Rijeka) for instance. It's first
mentioned name in history is Rika (which is a cakavian dialect of Croatian
language and means Rijeka). Venetians occupied Fiume in the 16th century
(after they burned the city down and robbed and demolished anything they
could) and that's when Italian term Fiume (which means River and is a
translation of the Croatian Rijeka) was introduced.


so. I find it at least too simple to say that Serbians were or are bad.
Yougoslavia was allowed to make etnichal cleansings for political
reasons.. and Croatia itself committed many muirders agains muslim
minorities. jsu recently enoug.

Croatia didn't make ethnic cleansing of muslim minority. During the war in
Croatia muslim minority was siding with Croatians. However, after Croatia in
1995 regained territories occupied by Serbs in 1991 there have been a number
of killings of Serbs that remained on that teritory.

I live in Rijeka and I know a thing or two about the history of my city and
my region. You shouldn't be so narrow-minded because your shauvinist
attitudes won't get you anywhere. From my personal experience I know that
Rijeka and Istria are multicultural regions and a lot of people that inhabit
it are of mixed origin. So I as being part Italian, part Croatian and part
Slovenian can't be partial as you are because of your superficial knowledge
of the subject. You should take things with a pinch of salt and try to see
the whole picture. A lot of wrong has been done in this region. I personally
find all crimes equally repulsive and I condemn both Italian crimes in the
Adriatic region as well as the crimes commited by the partisans after WW2 or
the crimes commited by Croats and Serbs during the 1990-ies. But when
talking about 20th century crimes in Europe, it would be only fair to admit
that the worst evil of the 20th century came from Italy and Germany and not
from the Slaves who were always playing supporting roles during history.

Sanja wrote on Sun, 1 Apr 2007 19:51:02 +0200:


S You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast
S of Dalmatia before the Venetians invaded it. And that
S Italian (venetian dialect), Croatian and Latin coexisted
S for centuries. You should also note the way they treated the
S land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
S be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied
S the land just as Germans have occupied,

Lord, I'm going to have to attack you because your
great-great-great-......-grandfather said a rude word to my
great-great-great-......-grandmother ! Forget it please, I am
not responsible for my ancestors nor you for yours.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

James Silverton not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not wrote:

Sanja wrote on Sun, 1 Apr 2007 19:51:02 +0200:


S You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast
S of Dalmatia before the Venetians invaded it. And that
S Italian (venetian dialect), Croatian and Latin coexisted
S for centuries. You should also note the way they treated the
S land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
S be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied
S the land just as Germans have occupied,

Lord, I'm going to have to attack you because your
great-great-great-......-grandfather said a rude word to my
great-great-great-......-grandmother ! Forget it please, I am
not responsible for my ancestors nor you for yours.

Which reminds me about what I wrote regarding glasshouses...

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk