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#111
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"Craig Welch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:16:23 -0700, "PTRAVEL" wrote: Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space? (that doesn't sound right). Sorry, I don't buy it. Flying out of SNA heading to the east coast, most flight paths that head towards a mid-country hub take you very close to Meteor Crater in Arizona. I've been on a lot of flights in which the pilot would announce that the crater can be seen off the right side of the aircraft. I have, on occassion, invited interested passengers on the left to take a look out of my window to see this sight, but it's always been by-invitation-only. Very big of you, allowing someone else to *look* out your window. If only everyone displayed such courtesy. "Look out my window," as in, "Lean across me so they can be right next to the window." As I'm sure you knew very well. Does that extend to passengers in your car also? -- Craig |
#112
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"Craig Welch" wrote in message ... On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:42:09 -0700, "PTRAVEL" wrote: You're the only one, here, who thinks it's okay for other people to intrude into your seat space and pull down your shade. No he's not. I consider it quite normal. I can't count the number of times I've seen a window seat passenger fall asleep, with the aisle passenger then leaning over and closing the shade as a courtesy. The usual reaction when the window seat passenger wakes up is to say 'oh, thanks'. First, this wasn't an aisle seat passenger doing it "as a courtesy," but a passenger seated behind me doing it because HE wanted the shade down. However, I've _never_ seen an _unrelated_ aisle-seat passenger do this. -- Craig |
#113
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"me" wrote in message om... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... [snip] I would have fully agreed with you that had you been using the window at the time he should have asked and you would have been well within your "rights" to have refused. But look, you were asleep - so instead of waking you, he closed the shade. You weren't using the window and he was bothered by the shade being open. You didn't lose anything and he gained. Why the stick up your butt? When I get up to use the john, I don't use my seat or pillow, either. Do you think it's okay to sit in someone else's seat and take a quick snooze with your head on their pillow? First, answer the question. Inquiring minds want to know. The question was obviously rhetorical. Well, I should have snipped the "stick up the butt" part. But what was your objection considering you were asleep? But second, yes, I've been known to utilize an empty seat next to me whilst the passenger was gone to do all manner of things. (They aren't gone long so naps are outta the question but...) Which is non-responsive to my question. I have no idea what "utilize" means in the context in which you've used it. Did you put your magazine on it? Your carryon? That would be the most common. I might reorganize my things between the carry on under the seat, the seat pocket, maybe what I have in the over head bin, that kinda thing. I use their tray table too. Did you sit in someone else's seat during a rough patch of turbulence? Well, I've sat there for a whole host of reasons including having a conversation with someone, and yes, to look out the window while they were gone. Those circumstances are either non-intrusive or justified under the circumstances. Did you "utilize" someone else's seat by making yourself comfy with their pillow and blanket? If so, you imposed. And what most of us are suggesting is that while you are asleep, closing the shade is no more obtrusvie than using your seat while you're at the head. He pulled down my shade, which he had no right to do. I also woke up, most likely because of his intrusion. [snip] This part I tend to agree with. I've been in a similar situation and have tended to restrain myself for that very reason. Pretty hard to reach over and close it without waking someone. Earlier in this thread I explained why I like to keep the shade open. I've been on flights were my assigned "window" seat was actually next to windowless part of the fuselage (some 767s are like this). The only way I'd be able to see out would be peering between the seat and the fuselage at the window next to the pax in front of me. If that pax wanted his window down, for whatever reason, I would never dream of snaking my hand between the fuselage and the seat and raising it. I have been know however to close them when they were asleep and the FA's were asking for them to be closed. But I lived in a large family, 9 folks in a 5 bedroom house. Old style, no "family" room. All space in the house was constantly in shared use. Kinda lose the whole "my space/your space" concept in that situation. Ya tend to learn the age old lesson of sharing everything. To be honest, if I became aware that light was glaring on the passenger, I'd be the one to close it, probably without being asked. I would as well. The light wasn't glaring on the passenger. That's the whole point -- there was no sun in his eyes, there was no movie playing, in short there was no reason to have my shade down other than that passengers personal preference to have a dark cabin. My personal preference is to have a light cabin. The compromise is the one designed by the aircraft manufacturer -- individually-controlled shades: he could keep his down, and I could keep mine up. The issue that pretty much confuses everyone however was that you were asleep. If I wanted to peer out, I'd stick my own head in there to handle the issue. Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space? No, if I had "my" window shade open because I wanted to look out the window, but the sun was shining on another passenger, I'd stick my head in "my" window so as to block the sun. [snip] Folks, we're packed in like sardines for several hours. All the more reason to be respectful of other passenger's personal space.And, FWIW, this happened in F, which is considerably less sardine-like. And to be a little less demanding when one is asleep. One for all and all for one ya know? Which is why a request to me or, failing that, a request to the FA would have been appropriate. Invading my space was not. The perception is you were being a bit pedantic. The magnitude of the transgression appears to be a bit out of kilter with the magintude of your response. I'm afraid even if I was in total agreement with you on the technicalities of the transgression, I wouldn't remember it long enough to comment about it after the flight. |
#114
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"me" wrote in message om... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "me" wrote in message om... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... [snip] I would have fully agreed with you that had you been using the window at the time he should have asked and you would have been well within your "rights" to have refused. But look, you were asleep - so instead of waking you, he closed the shade. You weren't using the window and he was bothered by the shade being open. You didn't lose anything and he gained. Why the stick up your butt? When I get up to use the john, I don't use my seat or pillow, either. Do you think it's okay to sit in someone else's seat and take a quick snooze with your head on their pillow? First, answer the question. Inquiring minds want to know. The question was obviously rhetorical. Well, I should have snipped the "stick up the butt" part. But what was your objection considering you were asleep? 1. It was probably the pax behind me pulling down my shade that woke me up. 2. Waking up and finding the shade down was disorienting -- I specifically fly only in window seats precisely because I don't like the sensation of being disoriented, which occurs when I can't see out the window. 3. It was an intrusion into my personal space. If I'm asleep and not using my tray table, do you think it's okay for him to lower it and set up his computer on it? But second, yes, I've been known to utilize an empty seat next to me whilst the passenger was gone to do all manner of things. (They aren't gone long so naps are outta the question but...) Which is non-responsive to my question. I have no idea what "utilize" means in the context in which you've used it. Did you put your magazine on it? Your carryon? That would be the most common. I might reorganize my things between the carry on under the seat, the seat pocket, maybe what I have in the over head bin, that kinda thing. I use their tray table too. That's not much of an intrusion, as long as you don't make them wait while you re-organize when they return. Did you sit in someone else's seat during a rough patch of turbulence? Well, I've sat there for a whole host of reasons including having a conversation with someone, and yes, to look out the window while they were gone. This, perhaps, gets a little closer to the line, though it doesn't cross it as long as you didn't inconvenience the person whose seat it was when they returned. Those circumstances are either non-intrusive or justified under the circumstances. Did you "utilize" someone else's seat by making yourself comfy with their pillow and blanket? If so, you imposed. And what most of us are suggesting is that while you are asleep, closing the shade is no more obtrusvie than using your seat while you're at the head. And I disagree. As I said, it probably woke me up, but either way it was an imposition on my space while I was in it. He pulled down my shade, which he had no right to do. I also woke up, most likely because of his intrusion. [snip] This part I tend to agree with. I've been in a similar situation and have tended to restrain myself for that very reason. Pretty hard to reach over and close it without waking someone. Earlier in this thread I explained why I like to keep the shade open. I've been on flights were my assigned "window" seat was actually next to windowless part of the fuselage (some 767s are like this). The only way I'd be able to see out would be peering between the seat and the fuselage at the window next to the pax in front of me. If that pax wanted his window down, for whatever reason, I would never dream of snaking my hand between the fuselage and the seat and raising it. I have been know however to close them when they were asleep and the FA's were asking for them to be closed. If the FA is asking for them to be closed, then it is for a reason, i.e. there's a movie on, it will soon be dawn, etc. In other words, it prevents a single passenger from imposing on all the others and, under those circumstances, I've lowered my shade when asked. Here it was just one passenger who decided to impose his personal preference on me -- no necessity, just preference. But I lived in a large family, 9 folks in a 5 bedroom house. Old style, no "family" room. All space in the house was constantly in shared use. Kinda lose the whole "my space/your space" concept in that situation. Ya tend to learn the age old lesson of sharing everything. To be honest, if I became aware that light was glaring on the passenger, I'd be the one to close it, probably without being asked. I would as well. The light wasn't glaring on the passenger. That's the whole point -- there was no sun in his eyes, there was no movie playing, in short there was no reason to have my shade down other than that passengers personal preference to have a dark cabin. My personal preference is to have a light cabin. The compromise is the one designed by the aircraft manufacturer -- individually-controlled shades: he could keep his down, and I could keep mine up. The issue that pretty much confuses everyone however was that you were asleep. Why? I prefer the shade up when I'm awake and I prefer the shade up when I'm asleep. Since it's my shade, I shouldn't have to justify my preference. However, I've already explained why I like it up, regardless of my relative state of consciousness. If I wanted to peer out, I'd stick my own head in there to handle the issue. Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space? No, if I had "my" window shade open because I wanted to look out the window, but the sun was shining on another passenger, I'd stick my head in "my" window so as to block the sun. And I'd lower my shade so as not to impose on the other passenger. That wasn't the situation here. [snip] Folks, we're packed in like sardines for several hours. All the more reason to be respectful of other passenger's personal space.And, FWIW, this happened in F, which is considerably less sardine-like. And to be a little less demanding when one is asleep. Sorry -- I demand that strangers keep out of my personal space, regardless of whether I'm awake or asleep. For me, the idle state to be in when I'm flying is feeling the effects of a couple of glasses of wine, with my noise-cancelling headset on, lost in my music, and my eyes closed. On rare occassions, if I'm particularly tired, I may fall asleep for a few moments. However, for the most part, I just drift along in a pleasant alpha state, glancing out of the window from time to time (and, particularly when we hit a patch of turbulence), until the double-ding means I have to put my electronics away. This is how I like to fly, and the airline permits me to do it by giving me a seat next to a window and allowing me to control the window shade. No one has any basis for telling em I can't fly this way unless I'm specifically interfering with them and how they lik to fly, e.g. without the sun glaring in their eyes, or watching the movie. If the pax behind me insists on a dark cabin, he can either be satisfied with the darkness that results from lowering his own shades, bring along eye shades, or charter his own jet. One for all and all for one ya know? Which is why a request to me or, failing that, a request to the FA would have been appropriate. Invading my space was not. The perception is you were being a bit pedantic. Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think I understand your point. And, speaking of points, I started this thread about someone using a Blackberry two-way PDA during takeoff, which is what the subject line refers to, not the boor behind me who assumed his preferences over-rode my own. The magnitude of the transgression appears to be a bit out of kilter with the magintude of your response. I made no response, other than to raise my shade. I'm afraid even if I was in total agreement with you on the technicalities of the transgression, I wouldn't remember it long enough to comment about it after the flight. I'm not even sure how this digression got started. It's certainly not anything that I would have started a thread about. |
#115
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"me" wrote in message [snip] The perception is you were being a bit pedantic. Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think I understand your point. A guy lowered your shade while you were sleeping. Was it completely according to Hoyle? Maybe, maybe not, but the magnitude of the offensive is so small as to be inconsequential. Furthermore, the magnitude of the offense would seem less than the magnitude of the discomfort to the passenger that was awake. If it bothered him that much, it would seem a little tolerance on your part was in order. |
#116
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What would you have done about this idiot?
"me" wrote in message om... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "me" wrote in message [snip] The perception is you were being a bit pedantic. Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think I understand your point. A guy lowered your shade while you were sleeping. Was it completely according to Hoyle? Maybe, maybe not, but the magnitude of the offensive is so small as to be inconsequential. Furthermore, the magnitude of the offense would seem less than the magnitude of the discomfort to the passenger that was awake. If it bothered him that much, it would seem a little tolerance on your part was in order. Sorry, but I think you're completely wrong. I've already explained, at some length, why. |
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