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#11
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
I would perfer that you don't try to intrerpret my moral standpoint,
as you appear to have missed the point of the original post. I was referring to the morality of banks & telcos outsourcing call centres as the original post referred to. I have personal knowledge of both these industries, & helping oversea economies is their lowest priority, in fact it isn't even taken into consideration. Their sole aim is to reduce costs & increase their share price, once again at the expense of the Australian workforce & their customer service. John L. On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:56:02 +1000, "Peter Webb" wrote: John L was clearly arguing about the morality of outsourcing; I was just identifying that his argument was incorrect. You are looking at this from a business perspective of whether the lower quality of the service justifies the lower cost ... this is a case by case argument. If its something that requires local knowledge, then maybe it isn't a good prospect for an offshore call centre - like your application. The single best thing the rich West can do for the world's poor is to give them jobs. Trade in services is particularly attractive, as it allows the development of an urban middle class. Moving call centres off-shore is far better than giving aid to the recipient country ... |
#12
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
"John L" wrote in message ... I would perfer that you don't try to intrerpret my moral standpoint, as you appear to have missed the point of the original post. No, I understood exactly the point of the original post. And your moral viewpoint is somewhat clear, from thew remarks "the common denominator is that this outsourcing is being done by the greediest & most socially immoral entities (Banks, telco's etc.)" I simply pointed out that many other industries have previously outsourced, so outsourcing cannot be taken as evidence of (or as a cause of) outsourcing. I was referring to the morality of banks & telcos outsourcing call centres as the original post referred to. I have personal knowledge of both these industries, & helping oversea economies is their lowest priority, in fact it isn't even taken into consideration. Ha ha. I guess your personal knowledge is you own a phone and have a bank account. Their sole aim is to reduce costs & increase their share price Yep. That's the law (Corporations Act); the Directors of the company have to act solely in the interest of shareholders. Peter Webb |
#13
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
"John L" wrote in message ... I believe the original poster was referring to call centres, & my reply was to that post. Without stooping to personal abuse I stand by my statements regarding Telcos & Banks. Where was the personal abuse? (There is some now - you are clearly bot a very logical thinker) I'm not in the habit of regularly calling my local textile group or footwear manufacturer for banking information or registering complaints re lack of service provided by my telco. Uhh, no, and I guess you don't buy shoes at a Bank. Here's another one - you don't ring your telco to cancel a cheque. What's this got to do with the morality of moving low paid, low skill jobs offshore, which is the point you tried to make? How is working in a call centre fundamentally different to working in a shoe factory at a moral level? I do have to do this on a regular basis due to the pathetic service offered by the major banks & telcos in Australia. I had the misfortune to contact a bank call centre last week, I got to listen to a number of catchy Indian tunes after being put on hold every time I asked a question as the operator had to refer to a manager in Australia. Idiots. Should have been playing Australian music. This is evidence only of incompetence, which happens all over the world - unless you have some (*cough*) moral objection to Indian music? At least once a week I get a call from an overseas call centre trying to convince me to change telcos (sometimes asking me to change to my current carrier). I have a good ear for accents but have had to hang up a number of times due to a complete inability to comperhend what they are saying. Again, this isn't a moral judgement on the call centre being overseas? Would it be morally OK if they spoke perfect English (as some do?). I'm interested if Peter agrees with outsourcing call centres, or is simply employed in one of these industries as a manager & is trying to justify their cost cutting actions in order to earn (productivity?) bonuses at the expense of customer service. John L. No, I don't work in banking or telecommunications, or having anything to do with call centres on a professional basis. Yes, I agree with outsouring call centres offshore in principle (individual cases need individual consideration). The increased global trade in services has significant benefit to people in third world countries, and if it makes services cheaper to purchase they are to the benefit of the Australian consumer. Any other position would be morally very hard to support. Shoes made in Australia are of exceptional quality, but start at $300 or so. Do you buy them? No, I bet you don't. When YOU are making the economic decision, you decide to purchase the cheaper (and generally inferior) product manufactured offshore in an outsourced facility. But then you claim the Banks are "the greediest & most socially immoral entities", for doing exactly what you have been doing for years. Does strike me as somewhat hypocritical. |
#14
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
You seem to base all your arguments on how I think, what I buy,
& what my occupation is. Therefore your arguments have absolutely no validity, as you have no idea what I buy, how I think or my profession. Perhaps you would like to give some validity to those spurious statements by stating what my profession is & what brand of shoe I wear, I don'y buy inferior products or your inferior arguments. Try to stick to facts & don't impose your fantasies regarding the buying habits & thoughts of other people. It appears you believe a little spin makes your own arguments appear more legitimate.. Your own hypocrisy is breathtaking. If you support overseas call centres why do you call the Indians idiots for playing Indian music, would it be better in your eyes if they conned people into believing they were in Australia. Your attempt to add a little (cough) racism says more about your own moral outlook than any of your spurious arguments. You'd do Warney proud with your spin. It's more than a little curious why the companies would prefer their customers not know the call centres were overseas. Could it be they are aware of the slippery moral grounds for outsourcing? Where is the benefit to the Australian consumer when it puts other Australians out of work & the taxpayer has to foot the unemployemnt bill. John L. On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:26:45 +1000, "Peter Webb" wrote: "John L" wrote in message .. . I believe the original poster was referring to call centres, & my reply was to that post. Without stooping to personal abuse I stand by my statements regarding Telcos & Banks. Where was the personal abuse? (There is some now - you are clearly bot a very logical thinker) I'm not in the habit of regularly calling my local textile group or footwear manufacturer for banking information or registering complaints re lack of service provided by my telco. Uhh, no, and I guess you don't buy shoes at a Bank. Here's another one - you don't ring your telco to cancel a cheque. What's this got to do with the morality of moving low paid, low skill jobs offshore, which is the point you tried to make? How is working in a call centre fundamentally different to working in a shoe factory at a moral level? I do have to do this on a regular basis due to the pathetic service offered by the major banks & telcos in Australia. I had the misfortune to contact a bank call centre last week, I got to listen to a number of catchy Indian tunes after being put on hold every time I asked a question as the operator had to refer to a manager in Australia. Idiots. Should have been playing Australian music. This is evidence only of incompetence, which happens all over the world - unless you have some (*cough*) moral objection to Indian music? At least once a week I get a call from an overseas call centre trying to convince me to change telcos (sometimes asking me to change to my current carrier). I have a good ear for accents but have had to hang up a number of times due to a complete inability to comperhend what they are saying. Again, this isn't a moral judgement on the call centre being overseas? Would it be morally OK if they spoke perfect English (as some do?). I'm interested if Peter agrees with outsourcing call centres, or is simply employed in one of these industries as a manager & is trying to justify their cost cutting actions in order to earn (productivity?) bonuses at the expense of customer service. John L. No, I don't work in banking or telecommunications, or having anything to do with call centres on a professional basis. Yes, I agree with outsouring call centres offshore in principle (individual cases need individual consideration). The increased global trade in services has significant benefit to people in third world countries, and if it makes services cheaper to purchase they are to the benefit of the Australian consumer. Any other position would be morally very hard to support. Shoes made in Australia are of exceptional quality, but start at $300 or so. Do you buy them? No, I bet you don't. When YOU are making the economic decision, you decide to purchase the cheaper (and generally inferior) product manufactured offshore in an outsourced facility. But then you claim the Banks are "the greediest & most socially immoral entities", for doing exactly what you have been doing for years. Does strike me as somewhat hypocritical. |
#15
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
Your obviously don't believe in the adage"it's better to shut your
mouth & be thought a fool, than open it & prove it". My profession involves consultancies with both telcos & banks, & I'm quite aware of the Corporations act. I don't believe it says anywhere in the act that companies have to act immorally. None of the companies I deal with have outsourced & all are showing higher profits than their counterparts. John L. On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:13:50 +1000, "Peter Webb" wrote: Ha ha. I guess your personal knowledge is you own a phone and have a bank account. Their sole aim is to reduce costs & increase their share price Yep. That's the law (Corporations Act); the Directors of the company have to act solely in the interest of shareholders. Peter Webb |
#16
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
"John L" wrote in message news You seem to base all your arguments on how I think, what I buy, & what my occupation is. Therefore your arguments have absolutely no validity, as you have no idea what I buy, how I think or my profession. Look back at the thread. You speculated on my employment - specifically that I worked for a telco or Bank. I did not speculate on yours. Perhaps you would like to give some validity to those spurious statements by stating what my profession is Ummm where did I do that? No its not "or is [he] simply employed in one of these industries as a manager". That was YOU speculating on MY employment. Forgetting which side you are arguing on? & what brand of shoe I wear, I don'y buy inferior products or your inferior arguments. Try to stick to facts & don't impose your fantasies regarding the buying habits & thoughts of other people. It appears you believe a little spin makes your own arguments appear more legitimate.. Your own hypocrisy is breathtaking. Gee, so I guess this is put up or shut up time. Do you buy Australian made shoes? From where? How much did they cost? How about your clothes - made in Australia, or at an overseas factory? Of course, your kids toys - no doubt all made in Australia? Unless you have never bought a pair of shoes that cost less than $300 (and this is the time and place to state this is true), you have made an economic cost-cutting decision to use an outsourced offshore supplier - exactly the same behaviour as you critisice the Banks for. This makes you a "greediest & most socially immoral entity" - somewhat worse than the Banks and telcos, as 1. They are not flaming hypocrites 2. You did it long before you did 3. They act this way to save some-one else's money - their shareholders - you do it for completely selfish reasons. If you support overseas call centres why do you call the Indians idiots for playing Indian music, would it be better in your eyes if they conned people into believing they were in Australia. Better for them, yes. Because there are people who (rightly or wrongly) believe that the call centre industry should be protected from overseas competition. Your attempt to add a little (cough) racism says more about your own moral outlook than any of your spurious arguments. You'd do Warney proud with your spin. It's more than a little curious why the companies would prefer their customers not know the call centres were overseas. Could it be they are aware of the slippery moral grounds for outsourcing? No. Its purely a matter of business. They win no friends in Australia by moving their call centres offshore. Doesn't of course mean that they are wrong to do so, its just that they have better things to do than explain macro-economic theory to bozzos on newsgroups. Where is the benefit to the Australian consumer when it puts other Australians out of work & the taxpayer has to foot the unemployemnt bill. John L. Everybody else in the developed world understood this argument 50 years ago. Lets take it from the top. Q) How is moving a call centre offshore morally different to moving a shoe manufacturing facility offshore? Or do you think Australia should prohibit the importation of shoes, textiles, pharmaceuticals, factory equipment, aircraft, industrial chemicals, software, and patent rights from overseas? Alternatively, if you think that these industries should be open to offshore competition, explain to me just one more time why call centres should be protected when none of these other (strategically more important) industries are not? Do that, and you can kick my arse with the $400 shoes, hand made in the Strand Arcade, that you are presumably wearing. |
#17
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection...HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
John L wrote: Your obviously don't believe in the adage"it's better to shut your mouth & be thought a fool, than open it & prove it". My profession involves consultancies with both telcos & banks, & I'm quite aware of the Corporations act. I don't believe it says anywhere in the act that companies have to act immorally. None of the companies I deal with have outsourced & all are showing higher profits than their counterparts. bwahahaha!!!...(more thought...) bwahahaha!!! michael |
#18
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
John L wrote:
Your obviously don't believe in the adage"it's better to shut your mouth & be thought a fool, than open it & prove it". My profession involves consultancies with both telcos & banks, & I'm quite aware of the Corporations act. I don't believe it says anywhere in the act that companies have to act immorally. None of the companies I deal with have outsourced & all are showing higher profits than their counterparts. Uh huh. miguel -- Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu |
#19
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
John L wrote:
If you support overseas call centres why do you call the Indians idiots for playing Indian music, would it be better in your eyes if they conned people into believing they were in Australia. It would be better if they tried as hard as possible to make potentially anxious callers feel comfortable. miguel -- Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu |
#20
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When You Hear The Heavy Accent & The Poor Phone Connection... HANG UP!!! ------ 2tDMpvDi
If it's put or shut up time, trhen let's have your credentials on
show. I believe it was you that stated & continue to state what shoes & clothes I wear, & appear to consider yourself the expert on business principles. Sadly for you, you don't make the rules in this discussion. Interedting that you raise a raise a recist inference to the argument then conveniently skate over it when confronted. You should be working for Bush he needs that kind of talent. As a matter of interest, what's a "bozzo". Would that be similar to me calling you a "Trool"? John L. On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:11:12 +1000, "Peter Webb" wrote: "John L" wrote in message news You seem to base all your arguments on how I think, what I buy, & what my occupation is. Therefore your arguments have absolutely no validity, as you have no idea what I buy, how I think or my profession. Look back at the thread. You speculated on my employment - specifically that I worked for a telco or Bank. I did not speculate on yours. Perhaps you would like to give some validity to those spurious statements by stating what my profession is Ummm where did I do that? No its not "or is [he] simply employed in one of these industries as a manager". That was YOU speculating on MY employment. Forgetting which side you are arguing on? & what brand of shoe I wear, I don'y buy inferior products or your inferior arguments. Try to stick to facts & don't impose your fantasies regarding the buying habits & thoughts of other people. It appears you believe a little spin makes your own arguments appear more legitimate.. Your own hypocrisy is breathtaking. Gee, so I guess this is put up or shut up time. Do you buy Australian made shoes? From where? How much did they cost? How about your clothes - made in Australia, or at an overseas factory? Of course, your kids toys - no doubt all made in Australia? Unless you have never bought a pair of shoes that cost less than $300 (and this is the time and place to state this is true), you have made an economic cost-cutting decision to use an outsourced offshore supplier - exactly the same behaviour as you critisice the Banks for. This makes you a "greediest & most socially immoral entity" - somewhat worse than the Banks and telcos, as 1. They are not flaming hypocrites 2. You did it long before you did 3. They act this way to save some-one else's money - their shareholders - you do it for completely selfish reasons. If you support overseas call centres why do you call the Indians idiots for playing Indian music, would it be better in your eyes if they conned people into believing they were in Australia. Better for them, yes. Because there are people who (rightly or wrongly) believe that the call centre industry should be protected from overseas competition. Your attempt to add a little (cough) racism says more about your own moral outlook than any of your spurious arguments. You'd do Warney proud with your spin. It's more than a little curious why the companies would prefer their customers not know the call centres were overseas. Could it be they are aware of the slippery moral grounds for outsourcing? No. Its purely a matter of business. They win no friends in Australia by moving their call centres offshore. Doesn't of course mean that they are wrong to do so, its just that they have better things to do than explain macro-economic theory to bozzos on newsgroups. Where is the benefit to the Australian consumer when it puts other Australians out of work & the taxpayer has to foot the unemployemnt bill. John L. Everybody else in the developed world understood this argument 50 years ago. Lets take it from the top. Q) How is moving a call centre offshore morally different to moving a shoe manufacturing facility offshore? Or do you think Australia should prohibit the importation of shoes, textiles, pharmaceuticals, factory equipment, aircraft, industrial chemicals, software, and patent rights from overseas? Alternatively, if you think that these industries should be open to offshore competition, explain to me just one more time why call centres should be protected when none of these other (strategically more important) industries are not? Do that, and you can kick my arse with the $400 shoes, hand made in the Strand Arcade, that you are presumably wearing. |
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