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#71
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
Bill, as always, another excellent post.
OK, point made here as well. I have to emphasize - my dad and mom both went out of their way to make sure we kids knew that they loved us, and that they disciplined us *because* they cared about us, not because they didn't. I think that may have had some positive effect in my case, in addition to the actual physical discipline. My brothers and I felt our Mom's hand or our Dad's belt on our buns. And more than once. But this was child raising in the 1950s when day care was an unknown. And, as with Mr. M., none of us appear to have suffered any long term damage from this behavior modification practice. I believe that such swats stopped at around age 10, by which time we could be put in check just by our father's raised eyebrow or the sideways glance of our Mom. It is my opinion that too many of those of us from the boomer generation decided to listen to 'experts', resulting in kids which managed their parents instead of the other way around. Added to this is the condition known as Day Care, which is a convenient term for parenting by proxy. Our two never set foot inside a day care, had their buns swatted when they deserved such, and have thus far been respectable and productive citizens. Adding to that, neither one misbehaved on numerous flights which began for them at around age 3. Much of which might be due to my very creative wife who always brought along enough toys/books/puzzles to occupy the kids' time. |
#72
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... snip And, as it happens, this morning I just received a large box of fruit and candies from Continental by way of apology. I got a check for $225 - I like cash better. I told them specifically that I wasn't looking for vouchers, tickets or anything like that. CASH - Oh, I got the fistful of vouchers, too, but I like cash. Please keep your facts straight and don't make assumptions, particularly assumptions that you publish on the internet and are libelous. I asked a question - I did not make a statement of fact. When did you stop beating your wife? I'm in a program - you? snip If you prefer, then: "I'll take my kid on an airplane whenever I want and if you don't like it, deal with it." Exactly right. I will take my children (well, in my case that would make them pretty much your age) and my grandchildren on an airplane in first class if I want and if you have a problem with that - it is your problem, deal with it. And that's exactly my point. You don't care how many other passengers you impose upon -- it's your "right" to bring your grandchildren on the plane. I do not care if you think that their mere presence is an imposition on you. In fact, I really don't care if you think their behavior is an imposition on you specifically Paul because I do not agree that your perspective is that of a civilized society. Well, it's my "right" to complain about nuisances, annoyances and impositions. That's how I deal with the exercise of your "right." Good for you. That isn't a statement of entitlement, Paul, that is a statement of fact. It's not a statement of entitlement? Think about that the next time you bask in the angry glares of your fellow first class passenger while the infant you brought on board wails. When did I ever say anything about bringing a wailing infant on board? Did you read the Christopher Elliot article? More and more, people (both parents and childfree) are _not_ willing to "deal with it." Not exactly - I read that more and more business travelers are INCLUDING children in their travel. And more and more people are complaining about it. I quoted the article in the post to which you're replying, but I'll re-post the quote he "Ban babies on board. Stop kids from flying altogether or at least create a special children's section on planes. That's what a growing number of frequent travelers want to do." Yet almost HALF are bringing their kids on business trips...BUSINESS trips - that means BUSINESS people taking kids on airplanes. Not to count the number of families taking trips...with KIDS. Which means more than half the passengers with kids don't do this on business trips -- BUSINESS TRIPS. But they do it on other trips. Not to count the number of families who don't take kids unequipped to handle the trip on board. Once again, the qualification. There are literally hundreds of thousands (actually 27 million households) of minor children traveling every year. Why this "unequiped" bull? What's your point, anyway? Lots of people are inconsiderate, so it's okay for you to be inconsiderate as well? Children are and will continue to be part of the flying public. snip See the Google references I posted for you. Did, thanks. Then you saw that I'm hardly the lone voice in the wilderness on this issue. You are hardly more than a whimper of discontent in an avalanche of pediatric jollity. According to you. Not according to Elliot. Sure, and you believe any editorial that favors your personal political position? Or is it only that part of the editorial that favors your personal position? Elliot is the Crabby traveller and his numbers are 5 years old. When exactly was this editorial written? Did you need to go to historical databases to find support for your argument? And what about this part - "Clavner says airlines and parents are “inflicting pain on people who are in a rush to get somewhere” and it needs to stop." Is your need to "rush" somewhere some type of entitlement? snip I'm trying to balance the growing number (no stat) with the 24.4 MILLION business trips WITH kids. Did you miss that? No. The significance of the statistic (and the point of the article) is that the increasing number of children traveling on aircraft is resulting in an increasing number of complaints. Well - is that how you read it? Yep, that's how I read it. That was stated in the first paragraph of the article. In an editorial by the Crabby Traveler. I read it that more business people are taking the family along and there are a few snivilars complaining because it impedes their personal space and tranquility. I have no question that that's how you read it. snip Actually, it is. The last statistic I saw indicated that only about 1/3 of the households in the U.S. include a minor child. All depends on how you define households. Certainly our seniors don't have any kids at home, but boy, do they love kids! Not all of 'em, by any means. No Paul - I don't do absolutes. But here's an idea - next time you see a senior on board, ask if he/she has pictures of the grand kids. However, the point isn't whether someone likes kids or not. Why not? This thread is solely about, "spoilt brats/annoying kids/etc.," meaning kids who create impositions on others on airlines. OK. Let's hear from the chorus of seniors who say, "We don't mind our seat being kicked, or endless shrieking, or food being thrown, or aisles being blocked, or any of the other activities committed by infants and out-of-control young children, when we fly." All of these things can happy - but in my experience they happen infrequently and seat kicking, food throwing, and aisle blocking - not to forget cell phone screaching, drunken flirtations, odiferous flatulence spewing, obese overhanging, and window shade pulling...flying is not the adventure it was back in the 70's Paul. Get over it. Crap does and will continue to happen and no amount of complaining will change that. You live in a society - if you want to be a recluse, go to it. If you have expectations that aren't being met, perhaps you need to rethink your expectations. Already, because of people with your attitude, Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children, a number of hotels and resorts are doing so, restaurants do so, etc. Let's not get too carried away, OK. Some theatres restrict access by younger children though few outright ban them completely. Every Broadway theater, except those with Disney productions and those doing shows specifically intended for kids, ban children under 4. No, they do not - and you know it. I'm not going to get into a "yes they do, not they don't" arguement with you. Because you will lose. They may recommend, they may suggest, and in some cases may not allow children at certain times or for certain shows - but there is no blanket ban on kids. Care to make a money wager? You name it. The various performing arts centers that I attend in California discourage young children and completely ban babies. Discourage is different than ban. "ban babies" I've seen lap children prohibitions but that is the extent of it - Now, let me draw your attention to your own citation further down - "as a courtesy to other patrons, bear in mind that it is not appropriate for small children..." It is a request and advice - not a ban or prohibition. This is what happens when you search the San Francisco Symphony website on the term "childfren". "The search results are listed by section and subsection of the SF Symphony site in which they are found. If no relevant information is found in a particular section it will not be displayed in the results list." So what? As it happens, I was at the San Francisco Symphony last Friday. I didn't keep the program, so I don't know what was in it. I do know that I did not see a single young child present, nor did I see any babies. Good - and honestly, there are few reasons for a child to be there. However, I do remember one very precocious 5 year old at a recent concert I attended (not as classy as the SFS) - but maybe that doesn't count - since he was on stage performing... So, either there is such a policy in place, or the people of San Francisco are courteous enough to recognize the inappropriateness of young children and babies at such an event. I don't think courtesy for YOU has anything to do with it. I think that on the whole parents are pretty smart when it comes to when and where to bring the kids. I don't make it a habit to bring the grandkids to concerts (well, at least not the younger one) - they have no interest and they'd much rather go to a ball game, bowling, or to the beach. Since I just moved to San Francisco, this was my first time at the Symphony. However, I frequently attended the Orange County Performing Arts Center when I lived in Orange County. Here's a quote from their program: "Children: Children are welcome at most Center events, but every patron must have a ticket, regardless of age. Please, as a courtesy to other patrons, bear in mind that it is not appropriate for small children to attend symphony, ballet and other performances where silence is a prerequisite for full enjoyment of the artistic experience. Babes in arms are not permitted in all cases." No ban, paul - no lap children as I said - everyone has a ticket. No ban. Just contribute the money to your favorite charity. And they haven't been forced to do anything - they have done so out their own free will. And they have every right to do so. Of course they do. So do they airlines, for that matter, if they ever choose to do so. However, the point is not that they exercised their right to ban children, but the problem with children was sufficiently severe as to mandate an express policy. That says a lot about the parents of these kids. And the airlines policy would be.....? "We'll sell tickets to anyone, because we don't care about the comfort of the passengers." Sounds good to me - and consistent with my experience - that attitude explains the 29 inch pitch. And the SF Symphony's "policy" would be....? I don't know, and neither do you. However, based on the concert I attended on Friday, it very well could be, "We don't need an express policy because people in San Francisco have enough sense not to bring restless and whiny children or crying infants to our events." You said that where you go they are banned. Now yoiu suggest that SF is perhaps the last bastion of Tauger standards of courtesy? No one likes an unruly child at any time in any place. But that doesn't mean every child is unruly all the time in every place. Who ever said they were? Then you agree - a ban on children is inappropriate. One should endeavor to ban only unruly children? And that is why parents may well be advised that some venues may not be conducive to children of a certain age, but why few venues activily go out of their way to ban their entrance. Let's see if it remains few. I'm betting it won't. I really don't think it is a big enough issue to worry about. Well, at least it isn't a big enough issue for me to worry about. So, fine for them - and if an airline wants to do it, fine for them too. It is their right as the owners. And that goes for the local bar, Chilis at the airport, or any place else. If the owner wants to be selective about clientele, I have no problem with it. Fine, then we're in complete agreement. The owner, Paul - not a small subset of potential customers. Exactly. A small subset of potential customers -- those with bratty kids or screaming infants -- don't get to dictate to the world, either. No, they do not. The owner does. And until the owner puts up the sign - no unruly children allowed - right next to the sign "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" you can't dictate to me. If you don't like the fact that the owner has NOT elected to limit access, then you need to deal with it. Exactly. And the way I deal with it is to make my displeasure known to the owner. And if, and a lot of the others mentioned, as an example, in the Elliot article, do the same, then the restrictions will be expanded. I will wait with baited breath. But honestly, Paul, if an airline ever suggested that they will restrict access to children, I will be the first in line to take my business elsewhere. And I will not be alone in this. And the first airline to restrict children, either by segregating them in a "family section" (as they used to do with smokers) or an out right ban, will get my business, even if they charge a premium for the ticket. And I will not be alone in this. So - if it is such a good deal, why not put some personal resources behind it. If in fact it would be such a marketing coup, get to it, Paul. Form the consortium and get that funding rolling. Gees - airlines couldn't even make the more comnfortable coach seat proposition work - what makes you think a child ban will impact? I don't find children to be a problem on airplanes - mine, or others. I don't find children on airplanes, per se, to be a problem. Since when? Since always. Please remember that. However, some of them create enough of a problem, both for me and many, many others, that it has become enough of an issue to warrant being written about and reported on in the media. Yeh, and Arnold's sexual harrassment from the early 70's was deemed important enough too. And your point is . . . what? I just thought that a five year old oped piece wasn't quite the evidence of importance that I would have used to make my point. You do have a problem with it. You have two choices - deal with it or don't fly on airlines that allow kids. Sorry, but you don't get to determine my options. There's a third choice: complain to the airline, each and every time someone brings a shrieking infant or out-of-control child on board, or in the club rooms. Good - complain all you want - if that's how you want to deal with it - but it won't change anything. Economically it is untenable for an airline NOT to allow children. Do you get why? Economically, it is very tenable to ensure that passengers are happy enough with the experience to return. Why do you think many of the club rooms have an isolated "family room" now, rather than simply filling a corner of the club with brightly-colored plastic? The "isolated" family rooms were designed to meet the needs of the 24 million BUSINESS travelers traveling with their kids. I think it's a great idea. Nintendoes, TVs, blocks, books....shoot, you get your work stations and your bar, why shouldn't other valuable customers with different needs be catered to as well? If it were intended to protect you from kids, then kids would be REQUIRED to be in there. You don't do much marketing, do you. Maybe next time you complain, you'll get flowers. But, just to be clear, if any provider of services to me unduly restricts me or my family's access at times and places I feel is appropriate (not you, but me), I will also take the opportunity to complain and moreover, I will take the initiative to take my business elsewhere. You have the same prerogative. Exactly. Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. js |
#73
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... Care to make a money wager? You name it. http://www.tdf.org/programs/tkts/bwaylisting.htm NINE Nine's central character, and only man in the musical, is Guido Contini, a film director in the Fellini mold. He has contracted to write and direct a film, but is unable to come up with a suitable plot. After recent box office failures, he finds himself drifting towards a nervous breakdown. Guido find himself examining his past flawed relationships with the many women who have come through his life and the struggle to act his mature age of 40 as opposed to Nine. May be inappropriate for 4 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted in the theatre. Tues - Sat at 8pm; Wed & Sat at 2pm; Sun at 2pm $76.00 - $101.00 Eugene O'Neill Theatre 230 West 49th Street (Broadway - 8th Avenue) TAKE ME OUT The play tests the underbelly of America's most beloved sport, baseball. Darren Lemming, a young iconic baseball star is at the top of his game, professionally and personally. He decides to call a press conference that results in a shocking admission to the waiting media. May be inappropriate for children 17 and younger. (Some nudity) Children under 4 are not permitted into the theatre. Tues-Sat at 8pm, Wed and Sat at 2pm, Sun at 3pm. (Tuesdays Mar 11-25 at 7pm Walter Kerr Theatre 219 West 48th Street (Broadway - 8th Avenue) ' http://www.jimsdeli.com/theater/little-shop-horrors.htm Little Shop of Horrors Playing at Virginia Theater Show Site Little Shop of Horrors Broadway Musical Previews August 29 2003 Opens October 2 2003 Running Time 2 hrs | 1 intermission Tickets $56 to $96 Preview prices August 29th thru September 14th $50 Prices do not include any taxes, service charges or other charges HotTicket! Little Shop of Horrors tickets - Check TicketsNow for premium seats Order at Telecharge 212-239-6200 | Outside NY Metro Area 800-432-7250 | Groups 212-302-7000 / 800-677-1164 Restrictions Children under 4 years old not permitted http://www.talkinbroadway.com/world/wrongmountain.html Wrong Mountain by David Hirson. Directed by Richard Jones. Starring Ron Rifkin and Daniel Davis, with Beth Dixon, Anne Dudek, Tom Riis Farrell, Reg Flowers, Jody Gelb, Daniel Jenkins, Ilana Levine, Bruce Norris, Mary Schmidtberger, Michael Winters. Scenery and costumes designed by Giles Cadle. Lighting designed by Jennifer Tipton. Sound designed by John Gromada. Theat Eugene O'Neill Theatre, 230 West 49th Street, New York, NY 10036 (Between Broadway & 8th Ave) Running time: 2 hours and 10 minutes, including one 15 minute intermission. Audience: May be inappropriate for 15 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted in the theatre. (Sexual situations, no nudity, strong language) http://ibs.theatermania.com/content/...t_show_id=7998 The Producers Mel Brooks' 1968 cult film has finally made it to Broadway! The Producers follows two Broadway producers as they execute a most unique plan: to sell 25,000 percent of a new show, have it fail miserably, and quietly collect the money after the show closes. To ensure their success, they hire the worst of the worst to mount Springtime for Hitler, a "gay romp with Adolph and Eva at Berchtesgaden." The perfect scheme ends in disaster as Springtime for Hitler becomes the last thing anyone expected it to be: a hit! Lewis J. Stadlen and Don Stephenson star as Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom. The production is directed and choreographed by Susan Stroman. Beginning September 2, Tuesday performances begin at 7:00pm. May not be suitable for 10 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted into the theatre. http://www.discovernewyorkwithkittga.../broadway.html Anna in the Tropics: Royale Theatre, 242 West 45th Street (between Broadway and8th Avenue) Tuesday - Saturday at 8 PM, Wednesday and Saturday at 2 PM and Sunday at 3 PM Previews: November 4, 2003 and Opens: November 16, 2003 On Sale Through: 2/29/04 Added Performances: Sunday, 11/16 at 6:30 PM (Opening night), Friday, 11/28 at 2 PM, Monday, 12/22 at 8PM, Friday, 12/26 at 2 PM, Monday, 12/29 at 8 PM and Friday, 1/2 at 2 PM No Performances: Sunday, 11/16 at 3 PM, Thursday, 11/27 at 8 PM, Wednesday, 12/24 at 2 PM and 8 PM, and Wednesday, 12/31 at 2 PM and 8PM Anna in the Tropics is a poignant and poetic new play from Nilo Cruz (Two Sisters and a Piano) set in 1929 in a Cuban-American cigar factory where cigars are still rolled by hand and "lectors" are employed to educate and entertain the workers. The arrival of a new lector is a cause for celebration, but when he begins to read aloud from Anna Karenina, he unwittingly becomes a catalyst in the lives of his avid listeners, for whom Tolstoy, the tropics, and the American dream prove a volatile combination. May be inappropriate for 12 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted into the theatre http://www.carolineoconnor.com.au/ch...n_broadway.htm Chicago: Lyrics by Fred Ebb. Music by John Kander. Book by Fredd Ebb and Bob Fosse. Original Production Directed and Choreographed by Bob Fosse. Based on the play by Maurine Dallas Watkins. Scenic design by John Lee Beatty. Costume design by William Ivey Long. Lighting design by Ken Billington. Sound design by Scott Lehrer. Orchestrations by Ralph Burns. Choreography by Ann Reinking in the style of Bob Fosse. Directed by Walter Bobbie. Based on the presentation by City Center's Encores! Starring Charlotte d'Amboise, Caroline O'Connor, Billy Zane, Rob Bartlett. Also starring Roz Ryan, R. Bean. With Dona Marie Asbury, Gregory Butler, Mac Calamia, Belle Callaway, Roxane Carrasco, Michelle DeJean, Shawn Emamjomeh, Gabriela Garcia, Michael Kubala, J. Loeffelholz, John Mineo, Sharon Moore, James Patric Moran, Michelle Potterf, Krissy Richmond, Michelle M. Robinson, Mark Anthony Taylor, David Warren-Gibson, Eric Jordan Young. Theat Shubert Theatre, 225 West 44th Street between Broadway and 8th Avenue Running time: 2 hours 30 minutes including one 15 minute intermission Audience: May be inappropriate for children 12 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted in the theater. http://ibs.theatermania.com/content/...t_show_id=6649 Mamma Mia! The musical Mamma Mia!, based on the songs of ABBA, follows the story of a forty-something mother planning her daughter's wedding. Incorporating 22 of the famous band's songs, the show portrays the contrast of values between mother and daughter. Set in the present day on a tiny, mythical Greek island, it is a musical love story that crosses continents and generations. "Knowing Me, Knowing You," "Take a Chance on Me" and, of course, "Dancing Queen" are all included. Broadway veteran and three-time Tony winner Dee Hoty will join the company in the role of Donna on Wednesday, October 22nd. Children under 4 are not permitted into the theatre. http://www.broadwaytixx.com/life_x_3.html Life (x) 3 Tickets Theat CIRCLE IN THE SQUARE Location: 1633 Broadway New York, NY 10019 Audience: Children under 4 are not permitted Type: Comedy/Drama http://www.labohemetickets.com/schedule.html Schedule and Other Information for La Boheme Tickets Venue: Broadway Theatre Address: 1681 Broadway New York, NY 10019 (between West 52nd & 53rd Streets) Type: Musical Opera Running time: 2 hrs 30 mins Type of Audience: Broad appeal to all ages Children under 4 are not permitted in the theatre. http://www.southbeachtickets.com/the...ht_gracie.html Say Goodnight Gracie HELEN HAYES THEATRE Location: 240 West 44th Street New York, NY 10036 Type:Comedy Approximate Running Time:90 minutes Audience: TBA Children under 4 are not permitted http://www.ticketmaster.com/venue/24615 Ford Center for the Performing Arts 213 West 42nd Street, New York, NY 10036 Children under 4 years of age will not be admitted. http://www.ticketmaster.com/venue/24615 THE GRADUATE takes place in California in the 1960's. Benjamin's got excellent grades, very proud parents and since he helped Mrs. Robinson with her zipper, a fine future behind him. A cult novel, a classic film - now Benjamin's disastrous sexual odyssey is brought to life in this critically acclaimed stage production adapted by Terry Johnson. May be inappropriate for 12 and under. Children under 4 are not permitted in the theatre. (Brief nudity/adult content 2 hours and 15 minutes, including 1-15 minute intermission. Tues - Sat at 8pm, Wed & Sat at 2pm, Sun at 3pm Plymouth Theatre 236 West 45th St. (Broadway - 8th Ave) Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. I'll leave it you to pick the amount and the charity to which you would like to donate. js |
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"Paolo G. Cordone" wrote: On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 5:41:37 +0100, Qansett wrote (in message ): No thank goodness. This can only be good news for the future generations, then. Twice as good for me too. There's a lot of women that dont wannt it either Paolo |
#75
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... Care to make a money wager? You name it. http://www.tdf.org/programs/tkts/bwaylisting.htm http://www.playbill.com/events/event_detail/608.html Show Advisory: Kid Friendly Your position was: "Already, because of people with your attitude, Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children, a number of hotels and resorts are doing so, restaurants do so, etc." Completely ban young children...no, I don't think so. Don't use absolutes if you don't mean to imply absolutes. OK - now lets hear the lawyer waffle. "It's a KID's SHOW" so of COURSE they don't ban kids." "I posted that there are exceptions..." Well, if there are exceptions then it is not an absolute. At the end of the day, Braodway theathers do NOT have a blanket ban on young children. As with anything, owners restrict access to certain age grouyps at certain times because it is good business. Likewise, governments impose age restrictions in an effort to impose some "morality". Broadway theatres do NOT have an outright ban on young children or infants. Why Not? Well, they cater to that crowd and moreover, it isn't as big a problem as you might like it to be? Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. You first. I'll leave it you to pick the amount and the charity to which you would like to donate. I donate regularly - mostly to charities that support the development of children (in the third world and at home). In spite of your error buit in the interest of ending this thread, I'll send a check to the Ronald McDonald house for $100 in your name. What charity will be getting your check in mine? js |
#76
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... Care to make a money wager? You name it. http://www.tdf.org/programs/tkts/bwaylisting.htm http://www.playbill.com/events/event_detail/608.html Show Advisory: Kid Friendly Your position was: "Already, because of people with your attitude, Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children, a number of hotels and resorts are doing so, restaurants do so, etc." Completely ban young children...no, I don't think so. Don't use absolutes if you don't mean to imply absolutes. Here's what I had said: Let's not get too carried away, OK. Some theatres restrict access by younger children though few outright ban them completely. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...TF-8%26hl%3Den "Every Broadway theater, except those with Disney productions and those doing shows specifically intended for kids, ban children under 4. The various performing arts centers that I attend in California discourage young children and completely ban babies." OK - now lets hear the lawyer waffle. "It's a KID's SHOW" so of COURSE they don't ban kids." "I posted that there are exceptions..." As you've done continually in this thread, you persist in making up positions I don't hold, ascribing them to me, and then attacking them. You've done exactly that here. Sorry, but I've proven the above statement, and it's obvious to anyone reading this, assuming anyone even is. You made the bet. Let it be on your conscience that you welched (since the payoff was to be to a charity, I don't personally lose). Well, if there are exceptions then it is not an absolute. At the end of the day, Braodway theathers do NOT have a blanket ban on young children. At the end of the day, they do. As with anything, owners restrict access to certain age grouyps at certain times because it is good business. Likewise, governments impose age restrictions in an effort to impose some "morality". Broadway theatres do NOT have an outright ban on young children or infants. Why Not? Well, they cater to that crowd and moreover, it isn't as big a problem as you might like it to be? Completely wrong. It stuns me that, even in the face of absolute proof, you can continue to claim the opposite. Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. You first. I didn't lose the bet. I'll leave it you to pick the amount and the charity to which you would like to donate. I donate regularly - mostly to charities that support the development of children (in the third world and at home). In spite of your error buit in the interest of ending this thread, I'll send a check to the Ronald McDonald house for $100 in your name. What charity will be getting your check in mine? I didn't lose the bet. However, I don't mind making a charitable contribution. I'll pick one, though, that doesn't discriminate childfree adults. I'll let you know which one. js |
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... Care to make a money wager? You name it. http://www.tdf.org/programs/tkts/bwaylisting.htm http://www.playbill.com/events/event_detail/608.html Show Advisory: Kid Friendly Your position was: "Already, because of people with your attitude, Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children, a number of hotels and resorts are doing so, restaurants do so, etc." Completely ban young children...no, I don't think so. Don't use absolutes if you don't mean to imply absolutes. Here's what I had said: Let's not get too carried away, OK. Some theatres restrict access by younger children though few outright ban them completely. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...TF-8%26hl%3Den "Every Broadway theater, except those with Disney productions and those doing shows specifically intended for kids, ban children under 4. The various performing arts centers that I attend in California discourage young children and completely ban babies." There's the waffle and the lawyeristic "but...." OK - now lets hear the lawyer waffle. "It's a KID's SHOW" so of COURSE they don't ban kids." "I posted that there are exceptions..." As you've done continually in this thread, you persist in making up positions I don't hold, ascribing them to me, and then attacking them. You've done exactly that here. I posted EXACTLY what you wrote. Sorry, but I've proven the above statement, and it's obvious to anyone reading this, assuming anyone even is. So, not all Broadway theatres ban all children all the time. Fine - my point exactly. You made the bet. Let it be on your conscience that you welched (since the payoff was to be to a charity, I don't personally lose). Yeh, right. Well, if there are exceptions then it is not an absolute. At the end of the day, Braodway theathers do NOT have a blanket ban on young children. At the end of the day, they do. No, at the end of the day, they don't - unless you want to take the expression to the literal. As with anything, owners restrict access to certain age grouyps at certain times because it is good business. Likewise, governments impose age restrictions in an effort to impose some "morality". Broadway theatres do NOT have an outright ban on young children or infants. Why Not? Well, they cater to that crowd and moreover, it isn't as big a problem as you might like it to be? Completely wrong. It stuns me that, even in the face of absolute proof, you can continue to claim the opposite. What is it about the Lion King you don't get? I have no problem with limiting attendance to theater consistent with the subject matter - in fact, I am a strong proponent that under 18's shouldn't be found in strip clubs. However, there is no consistent prohibition of children in Broadway theatres and the only limitations are based on a subject matter criterion as far as I can tell. Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. You first. I didn't lose the bet. Oh yes you did Mr. Tauger...but you know what? I'm used to lawyers and I don't believe half of what the say or anything what they write. I told you you'd try to do the two step shuffle, and you didn't disappoint me. You did it when you said that children should NEVER be allowed in a bar and then made exceptions out the wazoo that it was infants and those infants needed to be screaming and that Chili's isn't a bar... Is this statement correct? "Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children." Of couse not. Not until you qualify it to specific theatres and specific performances. Had you said that many theatres on Broadway restrict access to children under 4 for certain shows and performances - I would have readily agreed - but you did not. You used the "forced to completely ban" as evidence that society in general opposes the presence of children in tauger adult only venues. To bad the little trick didn't work. Some people can see through the slick willy taugerisms. I'll leave it you to pick the amount and the charity to which you would like to donate. I donate regularly - mostly to charities that support the development of children (in the third world and at home). In spite of your error buit in the interest of ending this thread, I'll send a check to the Ronald McDonald house for $100 in your name. What charity will be getting your check in mine? I didn't lose the bet. However, I don't mind making a charitable contribution. I'll pick one, though, that doesn't discriminate childfree adults. I'll let you know which one. Fine - you do just that. I applaud and thank you for your decision to be childfree. js |
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... "PTRAVEL" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Smith" wrote in message m... Care to make a money wager? You name it. http://www.tdf.org/programs/tkts/bwaylisting.htm http://www.playbill.com/events/event_detail/608.html Show Advisory: Kid Friendly Your position was: "Already, because of people with your attitude, Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children, a number of hotels and resorts are doing so, restaurants do so, etc." Completely ban young children...no, I don't think so. Don't use absolutes if you don't mean to imply absolutes. Here's what I had said: Let's not get too carried away, OK. Some theatres restrict access by younger children though few outright ban them completely. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...TF-8%26hl%3Den "Every Broadway theater, except those with Disney productions and those doing shows specifically intended for kids, ban children under 4. The various performing arts centers that I attend in California discourage young children and completely ban babies." There's the waffle and the lawyeristic "but...." There's nothing waffling or lawyeristic about anything. Obviously, shows intended for children don't restrict access by children. It's ludicrous to assert otherwise. However, YOUR contention was that few Broadway theaters ban young children. Here's what you said: "Let's not get too carried away, OK. Some theatres restrict access by younger children though few outright ban them completely. And they haven't been forced to do anything - they have done so out their own free will. And they have every right to do so." I proved you wrong. Admit it and move on. OK - now lets hear the lawyer waffle. "It's a KID's SHOW" so of COURSE they don't ban kids." "I posted that there are exceptions..." As you've done continually in this thread, you persist in making up positions I don't hold, ascribing them to me, and then attacking them. You've done exactly that here. I posted EXACTLY what you wrote. No, you didn't. You posted out of context, and deleted the next sentence which explained the one you did quote. _I_ posted what I wrote, just as I posted what _you_ wrote. Sorry, but I've proven the above statement, and it's obvious to anyone reading this, assuming anyone even is. So, not all Broadway theatres ban all children all the time. Fine - my point exactly. And what point, exactly, is that? My point in raising the FACT that most Broadway theaters ban young children was that parents (and grandparents) like yourself have grown so abusive and inconsiderate of others that it is becoming increasingly necessary to limit their children's access by fiat. What point where you making by showing that Disney and other producers of other shows intended for children don't limit access by children? You made the bet. Let it be on your conscience that you welched (since the payoff was to be to a charity, I don't personally lose). Yeh, right. Exactly right. Well, if there are exceptions then it is not an absolute. At the end of the day, Braodway theathers do NOT have a blanket ban on young children. At the end of the day, they do. No, at the end of the day, they don't - unless you want to take the expression to the literal. At the end of the day, you won't be able to bring your grandchildren (if they are under the age of 5) to any Broadway theater, except those running shows intended for child audiences. And that's the whole point. As with anything, owners restrict access to certain age grouyps at certain times because it is good business. Likewise, governments impose age restrictions in an effort to impose some "morality". Broadway theatres do NOT have an outright ban on young children or infants. Why Not? Well, they cater to that crowd and moreover, it isn't as big a problem as you might like it to be? Completely wrong. It stuns me that, even in the face of absolute proof, you can continue to claim the opposite. What is it about the Lion King you don't get? What is it about "Disney and shows intended for children" that you don't get? The Lion King is the exception that proves the rule. I have no problem with limiting attendance to theater consistent with the subject matter - in fact, I am a strong proponent that under 18's shouldn't be found in strip clubs. However, there is no consistent prohibition of children in Broadway theatres and the only limitations are based on a subject matter criterion as far as I can tell. All Broadway theaters exclude children under 5, except Disney and other producers of shows intended for children. And the reason for the prohibition has nothing to do with suitability of material -- infants, for example, don't understand the "dirty bits." They're excluded because too many people who think like you drag babies and very young children to live theater where they disrupt the performance and interfere with both the actors and the audience. Good. And after you send the charity the check, we can call this thread ended. You first. I didn't lose the bet. Oh yes you did Mr. Tauger...but you know what? I'm used to lawyers and I don't believe half of what the say or anything what they write. I told you you'd try to do the two step shuffle, and you didn't disappoint me. I don't use these words loosely, and I almost _never_ resort to name calling on the Internet, so you'll understand how seriously I mean this when I say that you are simply a liar. You did it when you said that children should NEVER be allowed in a bar and then made exceptions out the wazoo that it was infants and those infants needed to be screaming and that Chili's isn't a bar... A liar and a fool. My objection has always been to infants and young children who cause disruptions in places where such disruptions are inappropriate and inconsiderate of others. You know this perfectly well, as I've explained it repeatedly to you. Is this statement correct? No. "Broadway theaters have been forced to completely ban young children." Of couse not. Not until you qualify it to specific theatres and specific performances. It's most theaters and all performances. I'll just cut and paste since you never seem to get it the first time: "All Broadway theaters exclude children under 5, except Disney and other producers of shows intended for children. And the reason for the prohibition has nothing to do with suitability of material -- infants, for example, don't understand the "dirty bits." They're excluded because too many people who think like you drag babies and very young children to live theater where they disrupt the performance and interfere with both the actors and the audience." Had you said that many theatres on Broadway restrict access to children under 4 for certain shows and performances - I would have readily agreed - but you did not. Because your version is incorrect. However, you continue to miss the point entirely. Why do you think most Broadway theaters (all of them, if you exclude theaters that are running shows intended for child audiences) exclude children under 4? You used the "forced to completely ban" as evidence that society in general opposes the presence of children in tauger adult only venues. Society doesn't welcome crying babies in theaters. This is news to you? To bad the little trick didn't work. Some people can see through the slick willy taugerisms. I know of only one other poster, also posting internationally, who used that phrase. I think you are good old amp_spamfree, who also was insulting and dishonest in his communications with me. Sorry, amp, you were burned with your first post in response to me. I'll leave it you to pick the amount and the charity to which you would like to donate. I donate regularly - mostly to charities that support the development of children (in the third world and at home). In spite of your error buit in the interest of ending this thread, I'll send a check to the Ronald McDonald house for $100 in your name. What charity will be getting your check in mine? I didn't lose the bet. However, I don't mind making a charitable contribution. I'll pick one, though, that doesn't discriminate childfree adults. I'll let you know which one. Fine - you do just that. I applaud and thank you for your decision to be childfree. js |
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Spoilt Brats/Annoying Kids/Etc
Upon re-reading my response, I apologize for resorting to name calling --
it's beneath me and unnecessary. However, since it's obviously impossible to have any rational discussion with you about this topic, I don't intend to respond to your posts any further. You can have the last word. |
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