Woman tries to open airplane door midflight

Fly Guy wrote:
One thing that the media hasn't reported about this story is could the
door even have been opened while in flight. Is there no lock-out
mechanism to prevent opening in flight?

Doors open inward forst and then outwards. To open inwards, you need to be
strong enough to overcome the cabin pressure which pushes the door very
strongly against the door frame.

At best, the lady would have been able to move the lever fully which may have
pushed the door inwards just enough to break the seal, this would have made a
lot of noise.

Mind you, at 4000feet, cabin pressure may or may not be matched with outside
pressure. It would probably still be higher than outside pressure.

In terms of chute, just moving the arm/lever doesn't deploy. It deploys only
once the door starts to move outwards.

When the door is "armed", the inflation system latches a wire to the door
frame. When door is opened, the wire then pulls on the trigger to start
inflation. When door is unarmed, the wire isn't attached to the dorr frame and
thus doesn't pull on the trigger when you open door.

nobody wrote:

Doors open inward forst and then outwards. To open inwards, you
need to be strong enough to overcome the cabin pressure which
pushes the door very strongly against the door frame.

As I said before, doors need to be designed to be able to be opened in
the event of landing in extreme climate conditions. There was a
documentary on the Boeing 777 (or maybe it was airbus) where a section
of fusalage with a door were put in a cold room and sprayed with an
inch of ice. They had to be able to open the door in that condition.

I thought cabins were pressurized to 10,000 feet during cruise. Since
this was landing phase, I'm not sure what the typical cabin pressure
profile is duringing descent and landing. I know from experience
(based on equalizing my ears) that there are more changes during
descent. It could be that once below 10k that inside and outside air
pressure are allowed to be equal all the way down to descent.

My main point is that regardless if the lady could have indeed opened
the door at all (or more than just a crack), the important observation
in this situation is the lack of action on the part of nearby
passengers.

I contend that in the heat of the moment (without all this
level-headed speculation about what would or could have happened) that
the logical reaction of the average passenger should (or would) have
been that yes, it's dangerous to try to open a door in flight, and
yes, a sucessfull opening posed a real threat to the stability of the
flight of the plane. To go further, I say that someone attempting to
open a door on a plane in flight would have appeared to surrounding
passengers as a threat only _slightly_ lower than someone with a gun
banging on the cockpit door. In spite of this, no-one on the plane
(EVEN the FA!) takes any physical action to subdue or remove the lady
from the door area.

I take this as an indication that 4 years after 9-11 there would be no
passenger action against another set of would-be hijackers or
terrorists. And I blame the lack of the addition to the pre-flight
message of a phrase along the lines of "You may be called upon by the
crew or your fellow passengers to subdue anyone who poses a threat to
the safety or security of this flight".

Without such a message, passengers will (in a future event not unlike
this one) look around or second guess themselves that they're not
supposed to get involved - that it's someone else's job - that they'd
get in trouble if they got involved or if they initiated any
counter-measure.

The Bush admin, the FAA, and the TSA has missed the most important
opportunity to give passengers the most effective way to protect
themselves and the plane they're in from harm in case of a future
incident. That being the knowledge that individual or collective
action to subdue a "bad guy" is both required and necessary, with or
without the direction or request of the crew.

Currently the average passenger is completely unaware of what is the
proper way to react in a 9-11 type situation (or any situation where
one or more people are performing actions that realistically are a
threat to the safe and secure operation of the plane).

Fly Guy wrote:

mrtravel wrote:


Wouldn't it open inwardly?


Wouldn't it deploy an emergency chute?

Tell me that wouldn't be a safety risk to the plane in flight.

One thing that the media hasn't reported about this story is could the
door even have been opened while in flight. Is there no lock-out
mechanism to prevent opening in flight?

don't airbus doors open outwards? I can't remember. I know boeing
are inwards. I could swear there was an airbus accident where the
plane was still (over)pressurized on the ground and when the flight
attendent opened it, he/she went out with the door and was killed.

And yes, the safety chute would certainly not be helpful although
it would probably be ripped to shreds (guess).


Gerald

Garner Miller wrote:

In article , Fly Guy wrote:
I would think that at 4000 feet it would be relatively easy to crack
the door open, allow the air pressure to equalize, and then be able to
fully open the door.
You'd be incorrect. Nobody was in any danger of that door opening.

At 4000 feet, the plane would have about a 2psi differential, pressing
on a ~2500-square-inch door. That's 5000 pounds of force on that door,
and I assure you the door mechanism doesn't offer that much leverage.

probably there wasn't a real chance that it would open despite my other
emails. I'm sure the Airbus and Boeing and other manufacturers
of a/c that fly at 20000+ feet look into the possibilities of this
happening either by accident or intentionally.

BTW, I know of a corporate pilot who had his Cessna depressurize
at in the 20,000 feet range from the port that they empty the toilet
waste from. But I doubt the moron tried to open that 'door' even
though she is dumb as sh*t. ;-)

Gerald

In article , Fly Guy wrote:

I thought cabins were pressurized to 10,000 feet during cruise.

More typically around 8,000 but that's at it maximum cruise altitude.
A plane is certified for a maximum pressure differential, typically
around 8 psi on a jet airliner.

The goal of pressurization is to keep the cabin as close to normal
pressure as possible. Up at 35,000 feet, the cabin may indeed be
close to 8,000 feet, because that's as good as an 8psi differential
will allow. On a short flight done at 15,000 feet, the cabin will
remain close to sea level (or the destination airport elevation),
because that's well within the capability of that pressurization
system.

Since this was landing phase, I'm not sure what the typical cabin
pressure profile is duringing descent and landing. I know from
experience (based on equalizing my ears) that there are more changes
during descent. It could be that once below 10k that inside and
outside air pressure are allowed to be equal all the way down to
descent.

No, that's not how it's done, because the rapid descents in an
unpressurized cabin would be very painful for everyone on board. Once
the airplane starts its descent from cruise altitude, the pressure is
smoothly brought down from 8,000 feet (or wherever it topped out) to
near the landing field elevation, at a comfortable rate of just a few
hundred feet per minute.

My main point is that regardless if the lady could have indeed opened
the door at all (or more than just a crack), the important observation
in this situation is the lack of action on the part of nearby
passengers.

With the passengers in their seats with their belts on, the only person
in any danger was the woman tampering with the door. Even with the
door missing entirely, the plane would be able to fly and land without
difficulty.

In spite of this, no-one on the plane
(EVEN the FA!) takes any physical action to subdue or remove the lady
from the door area.

Physical action was not necessary. She was not a significant threat to
the safety of the flight simply by her tampering with the door. The FA
used *words* to coax her away from the door, and was successful in
getting her back to her seat. She did her job well.

I take this as an indication that 4 years after 9-11 there would be no
passenger action against another set of would-be hijackers or
terrorists.

Your equating a door handle to a hijacker's gun is a flawed premise.

I assure you, if the flight attendant needed passenger assistance, she
wouldn't have hesitated to ask for it. And she would have gotten it.

--
Garner R. Miller
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

Fly Guy wrote:
My main point is that regardless if the lady could have indeed opened
the door at all (or more than just a crack), the important observation
in this situation is the lack of action on the part of nearby
passengers.


If it had been a arab looking male, you can bet that half the plane would have
been on his back within seconds. A white female was not seen as a terrorist threath.

And if the FA weren't doing anything, why shoudl the passengers ?

In article ,
Garner Miller wrote:

I thought cabins were pressurized to 10,000 feet during cruise.

More typically around 8,000 but that's at it maximum cruise altitude.

On a fair number of transcon and trans-oceanic flights I've never
actually seen anything higher than 6000 to 6500 feet on a cheapo Casio
altimeter watch (admittedly not a precision instrument, but probably not
more than a few hundred feet off in worst case).

Fly Guy wrote:
The sheep (I mean passengers) stayed in their seats as she tried to
open the doors.

What will happen the next time some terrorist gets up and tries to
pull a 9-11?

Will people also stay in their seats and let him fly the plane into a
building? Or will they tackle him? They did nothing to restrain this
woman who was doing something equally deadly.

Aircraft doors open (swing) *into* the plane for obvious reasons.
For this reason, it would've been practically impossible for her
to have opened the door at cruising altitude because of the differnce
in inside vs. outside pressure. At 4,000, even if she had been able
to open it, that's low enough as to not cause any great problem for
anyone other than herself.

--
Cliff

"tm" wrote in message
...
Garner Miller wrote:

The FA
used *words* to coax her away from the door, and was successful in
getting her back to her seat. She did her job well.

Sexist pig.

????

"G. Sylvester" wrote:

don't airbus doors open outwards? I can't remember. I know boeing
are inwards.

They both have plug doors that open inwards first, then can be pushed out.

I could swear there was an airbus accident where the
plane was still (over)pressurized on the ground and when the flight
attendent opened it, he/she went out with the door and was killed.

It wasn't because of the pressure. The door on the Airbus had a power
assist that helps it open in emergencies on the ground.