Flight Change Nonsense

On Nov 27, 3:09 pm, "John" wrote:
-----snipped------
because I was travelling on a Sunday (and therefore outside normal
working hours), I was on double-time, meaning that instead of my usual
£25/hour, I was on £50/hour for the 6-and-a-half hours I was on the road.

I don't get paid for the normal 15-minute commute from home to normal place
of work but when working away as above, I do. Are you saying that you fly in
your own time and do not get paid while you're on the plane?

----snipped------

That's the difference between being a salaried employee and an hourly
employee in much of the world. There is no overtime for any extra
hours you work, which if you have to fly to distant destinations is a
lot of noncompensated travel time if on a weekend or in the evening or
night. I quit going on business trips for my last employer because
oftentimes they were coupled with my vacation travel, with most of the
travel being at my expense, but they would give compensating time for
the business and pay normal business expenses for things like extra
flights needed. However, if there was a travel problem where I was
delayed on the business part, it was on my vacation time and not their
business time. Not really fair, so I quit doing such travel although
it never happened.

George

On 27 Nov, 13:08, "Rog'" wrote:
wrote:
If you use your points for something else, you are at least
costing the airline more money..

Oh, now there's a /bright/ idea. Nevermind the fact that
you are going to pay more in point-value for the item than
what it would cost by buying from the vendor and possibly
more than its actual value... just as long as you stick it to
the airline.

Now you are learning..!

Today, for most products and services it is loyalty that costs you.
Basically by being loyal you are inviting a Co to walk all over you.
New customers get the best deals, loyal customers get exploited.
Everyone knows that if you buy any financial product from your own
bank, your a likely to be well and truly shafted compared to what is
available elsewhere. This has always been the way in business: if the
competition has 100% market share in customer X and a business wants a
slice, you can bet your bottom Euro that will require offering a
bigger than normal discount to break into that customer.

The number of points you have is one measure of your own gullibility,
or at least how much you are being ripped off. I know hotels that
offer higher rates with points... wow I get 500 points worth
0.0000005pence if I pay an extra 60 Euros per night....!

On Nov 27, 9:09 am, "John" wrote:
"me" wrote in message

...

On Nov 27, 7:34 am, "John" wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
[snip]
Most regular flyers don't *earn* the privileges.

I don't?

No, I don't really see that you do. You're just flying to a destination to
do some work. How is that *earning* the privileges?

Because the "work" is choosing their flight and actually
taking the flight. (You don't get miles for flights you don't
personally take, even if they were nonrefundable tickets).

They are on business, being
paid a monthly salary or whatever by their company.

Even when it is outside of "normal business hours" which is
when the vast majority of my travel occurs? When I am asked to
work "excessive" or "exceptional" overtime, I am often given
additional compensation. I'm never compensated in any additional
way for travel time which occurs outside of normal business hours.

I live about 300 miles north of London and recently had to travel there for
a 3-day training course that had an 08.30 start on Monday morning, so I left
home at about noon on Sunday and drove there, arriving at about 6.30pm.
Because I used my own car rather than public transport I claimed 40p per
mile and, because I was travelling on a Sunday (and therefore outside normal
working hours), I was on double-time, meaning that instead of my usual
£25/hour, I was on £50/hour for the 6-and-a-half hours I was on the road.

Lucky you. I occasionally have to fly up to DC. It's a bit over
2 hours. I'm expected to rise at about 5:30 am to catch a 8:00 am
flight, attend an 11:30 am meeting which may last until 4 pm. Then
I catch a 7:00 pm back home, arriving at the house somewhere
around 10:30. That's roughly a 15 hour day. My compensation?
Normal salary. I'm allowed to leave the night before and they'll
pay for a room, dinner, and a rental car. But my compensation is
the same.

I don't get paid for the normal 15-minute commute from home to normal place
of work but when working away as above, I do. Are you saying that you fly in
your own time and do not get paid while you're on the plane?
[snip]

Yes, or working in the hotel room. The work rules around here say I
only get to "bill" the hours I'm either at the work site or here
at the company.

I bristle a bit at various suggestions about the perks of business
travel. No one I know that gets to take many of these trips looks
forward to them. Many of us actively avoid them, occasionally
to the detriment of business I suspect. Business travel generally
ends up being "hard work" and puts the rest of your personal
and professional life "on hold" to some extent. We had a short
discussion on another group about this a little while ago.

http://groups.google.com/group/Busin...se_frm/thread/
5c9d304a40819d7e

Any "perks" that one might derive from having to take these trips
either falls into the category of trying to "mitigate" the burden,
or compensate for the lost time. Stories of folks "racking up
miles" with "padded" flight schedules are mostly legends,
or merely folks trying to maximize their returns since they
are obligated to the travel to begin with.

"george" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 3:09 pm, "John" wrote:
-----snipped------
because I was travelling on a Sunday (and therefore outside normal
working hours), I was on double-time, meaning that instead of my usual
£25/hour, I was on £50/hour for the 6-and-a-half hours I was on the road.

I don't get paid for the normal 15-minute commute from home to normal
place
of work but when working away as above, I do. Are you saying that you fly
in
your own time and do not get paid while you're on the plane?

----snipped------

That's the difference between being a salaried employee and an hourly
employee in much of the world. There is no overtime for any extra
hours you work, which if you have to fly to distant destinations is a
lot of noncompensated travel time if on a weekend or in the evening or
night.

Oh, I couldn't do a job like that George, my time is far too precious to me.
If I'm doing something for the company, they're paying me for it, whether in
monetary terms or in TOIL (Time Off In Lieu)

I quit going on business trips for my last employer because
oftentimes they were coupled with my vacation travel, with most of the
travel being at my expense, but they would give compensating time for
the business and pay normal business expenses for things like extra
flights needed. However, if there was a travel problem where I was
delayed on the business part, it was on my vacation time and not their
business time. Not really fair, so I quit doing such travel although
it never happened.

Darn right it's not fair.

John

"me" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 9:09 am, "John" wrote:
"me" wrote in message

...

On Nov 27, 7:34 am, "John" wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
[snip]
Most regular flyers don't *earn* the privileges.

I don't?

No, I don't really see that you do. You're just flying to a destination to
do some work. How is that *earning* the privileges?

Because the "work" is choosing their flight and actually
taking the flight. (You don't get miles for flights you don't
personally take, even if they were nonrefundable tickets).

They are on business, being
paid a monthly salary or whatever by their company.

Even when it is outside of "normal business hours" which is
when the vast majority of my travel occurs? When I am asked to
work "excessive" or "exceptional" overtime, I am often given
additional compensation. I'm never compensated in any additional
way for travel time which occurs outside of normal business hours.

I live about 300 miles north of London and recently had to travel there
for
a 3-day training course that had an 08.30 start on Monday morning, so I
left
home at about noon on Sunday and drove there, arriving at about 6.30pm.
Because I used my own car rather than public transport I claimed 40p per
mile and, because I was travelling on a Sunday (and therefore outside
normal
working hours), I was on double-time, meaning that instead of my usual
£25/hour, I was on £50/hour for the 6-and-a-half hours I was on the road.

Lucky you. I occasionally have to fly up to DC. It's a bit over
2 hours. I'm expected to rise at about 5:30 am to catch a 8:00 am
flight, attend an 11:30 am meeting which may last until 4 pm. Then
I catch a 7:00 pm back home, arriving at the house somewhere
around 10:30. That's roughly a 15 hour day. My compensation?
Normal salary. I'm allowed to leave the night before and they'll
pay for a room, dinner, and a rental car. But my compensation is
the same.

I don't get paid for the normal 15-minute commute from home to normal
place
of work but when working away as above, I do. Are you saying that you fly
in
your own time and do not get paid while you're on the plane?
[snip]

Yes, or working in the hotel room. The work rules around here say I
only get to "bill" the hours I'm either at the work site or here
at the company.

I bristle a bit at various suggestions about the perks of business
travel. No one I know that gets to take many of these trips looks
forward to them. Many of us actively avoid them, occasionally
to the detriment of business I suspect. Business travel generally
ends up being "hard work" and puts the rest of your personal
and professional life "on hold" to some extent. We had a short
discussion on another group about this a little while ago.

http://groups.google.com/group/Busin...se_frm/thread/
5c9d304a40819d7e

Any "perks" that one might derive from having to take these trips
either falls into the category of trying to "mitigate" the burden,
or compensate for the lost time. Stories of folks "racking up
miles" with "padded" flight schedules are mostly legends,
or merely folks trying to maximize their returns since they
are obligated to the travel to begin with.

************************************************** ********

I suppose we are all different people with different attitudes (be a weird
world if we were all the same) and it's all about the choices and sacrifices
we're prepared to make, but personally, I just would not put up with that
and I would not do whatever job it is you do, if it meant making sacrifices
like that.

I value my time too much to work for nothing - if I'm doing something for
the company, they are paying me, either in money or time off in lieu, but if
they want me to do something for nothing, then no, that's not on.

John

On Nov 27, 10:40 am, "John" wrote:
"me" wrote in message
[snip]
Yes, or working in the hotel room. The work rules around here say I
only get to "bill" the hours I'm either at the work site or here
at the company.
[snip]

************************************************** ********

I suppose we are all different people with different attitudes (be a weird
world if we were all the same) and it's all about the choices and sacrifices
we're prepared to make, but personally, I just would not put up with that
and I would not do whatever job it is you do, if it meant making sacrifices
like that.

I value my time too much to work for nothing - if I'm doing something for
the company, they are paying me, either in money or time off in lieu, but if
they want me to do something for nothing, then no, that's not on.

Legally, the definition of "salaried" is that your work hours
and
your compensation cannot be directly connected. Everythings a balance
and a negotiation. We get fairly generous "flex time" and lost time
allowances. When I disappear for a few hours in the middle of the
day,
or show up late, or leave early for some reason, I occasionally have
to remind the boss that this flexibility is listed as part of my
"total compensation". I also remind him that I don't get paid for
those
travel hours. In the end it is an issue of managing your work load,
your responsibilities, and your life. I'd love to negotiate a
"different"
deal, but the reality is that it would most likely just contain a
different
set of advantages and disadvantages.

"Markku Grönroos" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"tim (not at home)" kirjoitti
...
4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is
cancelled and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a
choice of the last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me
stranded in CPH with no onward connection to my local apartment) or an
early flight requiring me to start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that
some people do this happily, but I don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told
that since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight
that LH still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy
flights I wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS
who have cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from
their allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I
am working here?

I assume you have paid far too little for free rerouting.

But that's the point. If I'd paid the absolute minimum cash fare I would be
entitled to be moved to any available flight. It's happened before.

If that's what you want, buy a full price IATA ticket.

If the airline cancels it's the airline's responsibility to reroute me, not
mine,.

tim

"Doesn't Frequently Mop" wrote in
message ...
On the particular moment of Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:06:41 -0000 in
relation to Mary's disappointingly immaculate rumpy pumpy, "John"
put forth:

I'm 50 years old and never flown anywhere and I'm not bothered if I ever
do
(started to "go abroad" for holidays 17 years ago but prefer the
convenience
of driving into europe - you get to bring back an entire bootful of booze
)) but it always rankles me that people who fly often get the chance
(via
points, frequent-flyer miles or whatever) to fly more, so that people who
have to fly a lot for business (paid for by the company) then get the
"perks" or "bonus" of flying privately for pleasure.

As an ex-consultant who did an awful lot of travel, I can tell you it
can really suck, and getting a few frequent flyer points would be a
tiny compensation. Once you have those points, you then of course need
to use them, and the airline isn't interested in making it a
comfortable experience.

I agree. It was hard to find acceptable flights to use them on. But once I
have done that, ISTM that I am a normal passenger entitled to the same as
anybody else in these circumstances.

tim

On Nov 27, 9:44 am, wrote:
On 27 Nov, 13:08, "Rog'" wrote:

wrote:
If you use your points for something else, you are at least
costing the airline more money..

Oh, now there's a /bright/ idea. Nevermind the fact that
you are going to pay more in point-value for the item than
what it would cost by buying from the vendor and possibly
more than its actual value... just as long as you stick it to
the airline.

Now you are learning..!

Today, for most products and services it is loyalty that costs you.

It takes management anyway.

Basically by being loyal you are inviting a Co to walk all over you.

If you presume that they'll always be nice to you.

New customers get the best deals, loyal customers get exploited.

In the airline industry, new customers without any flying
history
to document get exploited to some extent. Experienced folks that
know how to "work" the system can do okay.

[snip]
The number of points you have is one measure of your own gullibility,
or at least how much you are being ripped off. I know hotels that
offer higher rates with points... wow I get 500 points worth
0.0000005pence if I pay an extra 60 Euros per night....!

One of the "accounting" features of FF miles that most folks
overlook is the "actual value" issue. There are two kinds,
neither of which people typically consider. There is the
actual value to the company offering the points. That's of
minor interest to most of us. But there is also an actual
value to the user of FF miles. If you use them for flights you
might otherwise not take, their apparent value (their opportunity
costs so to speak) are not only close to zero, but potentially
the trip actually costs you money. If you use them to replace
flights you would take anyway, their value is what you would
have paid (that's the amount you "saved").

When I first started collecting them, I quickly became aware
that they were only worth about 1.5 - 2 cents per mile.I constantly
checked what I might have to "pay" for double points, or some other
offer and frequently saw that they weren't worth that much cash.

Platinum cards, loyalty programs, and any other apparently
"perk" generating offers only typically make sense for folks who
already spend alot of money. They can offset some of this by
using these programs to get at reduced costs what they would
otherwise buy. But for the guy that always flys the "supersaver"
fair, takes the red eye, sleeps in the Holiday Inn Express, they
have to pay close attention to what they are "paying" to get
these "free-bees". When you aren't spending much, you can't
save much.

I've always suspected that loyalty programs provide for a
simple market research program. You offer some product,
and see how many "points" customers are willing to "pay"
to get them. That gives you some idea of the size of the market
for the product, and the target cost. At that point you can
sell it for real hard cash to anyone. And as you suggest,
you can probably use such products to pull people into your
market share by making offers to "new" customers.

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 4:17 am, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
4 weeks ago, I booked a round trip LON to CPH with SAS for the second
week
in Dec, using my LH M&M points.

This weekend, I get a call from LH telling me that the flight is
cancelled
and I have to transfer onto an alternative and they give me a choice of
the
last flight of the day (which potentially leaves me stranded in CPH with
no
onward connection to my local apartment) or an early flight requiring me
to
start at 5:30 in the morning (I know that some people do this happily,
but I
don't).

I protest that there are other flights with availability, but I am told
that
since I booked with LH I am only entitled to move on to a flight that LH
still have an allocation on.

I think that sucks. If I wanted to have to choose from the crappy
flights I
wouldn't have booked 7 weeks ahead. My view is that it is SAS who have
cancelled the flight, so it is SAS that should rebook me from their
allocation and not bounce the problem back to LH.

Guess which airline will not be getting any more of my business whilst I
am
working here?

Sorry, Tim, but you got fair treatment. You got a free ticket from LH.
SAS doesn't owe you. This is the problem with free flights.

But I didn't get a free flight, they cancelled it (and it wasn't free!).
ISTM that (in Europe) it matters not how I paid for the flight, but once I
have, I'm entitled to receive that which I have paid for.

tim