Strandad without visa.

This is the continuation of the original thread that you can find
he

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.t...cc742d31d77010

Thank you all for answering my question. Originally I read the first
couple of replies but now I realized that this has turned into quite
an informative thread. Just to clarify - I am not a Canadian citizen
but I live in Canada holding Canadian Permanent Resident status.

Also, I am afraid that, while the regulation that holds airlines
responsible for presenting passengers to immigration without proper
documents seems to apply in my situation, it won't help me in any way
after the fact. It seems that the implied airline responsibility is
primarily towards the government and not towards the passenger. So, If
I was aware of this regulation and raised the issue with the German
immigration authorities at the airport instead of with the airline, I
might've been able to put the airline on the spot and negotiate with
them to send me to Belgrade which would be cheaper for them to do than
send me back to Canada.

The only thing is, I did explain my problem to German immigration
officer(s) and police, and they didn't mention this, nor offered any
help/advice/assistance. If this regulation really exists and applies
to EU countries, the immigration officers are either not aware of it,
are simply ambivalent or would rather take the easy way out by sending
the passenger back to the airline to deal with them. It really felt
weird that both the airline and the German authorities didn't seem to
care that there is a stranded passenger at the airport. I wonder what
would happen if I didn't have the money to pay for the change. While
there at the Frankfurt airport trying to resolve my problem, I heard
that this is actually quite common and that even mothers with children
are sometimes left to spend the night at the airport because of the
situations like this. So it seems logical that there would be
regulations for this. I wonder if immigration authorities are maybe
turning the blind eye sometimes. Maybe they are thinking, why should
we punish our own national airline because someone, who is not even
our citizen, didn't do their homework. I am sure that if I made a big
enough issue with the authorities, they would have to take this up
with the airline on my behalf. The only thing is, in that case, I
might've wound up on the first flight back to Canada which is not
exactly what I would want.

Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

On Sep 12, 11:23 am, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:06:31 -0700, wrote:
It really felt
weird that both the airline and the German authorities didn't seem to
care that there is a stranded passenger at the airport. I wonder what
would happen if I didn't have the money to pay for the change. While
there at the Frankfurt airport trying to resolve my problem, I heard
that this is actually quite common and that even mothers with children
are sometimes left to spend the night at the airport because of the
situations like this.

There's a stateless man who has lived at CDG for years, he likes it there.http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...604.html?from=...
--

Martin

That is interesting indeed. However, I am not stateless. I was simply
allowed (by the airline) to take the route which I cannot possibly
complete.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:23:40 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:06:31 -0700, wrote:

It really felt
weird that both the airline and the German authorities didn't seem to
care that there is a stranded passenger at the airport. I wonder what
would happen if I didn't have the money to pay for the change. While
there at the Frankfurt airport trying to resolve my problem, I heard
that this is actually quite common and that even mothers with children
are sometimes left to spend the night at the airport because of the
situations like this.

There's a stateless man who has lived at CDG for years, he likes it there.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...?from=storylhs

French is good after all.

wrote:

Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?


It was YOUR responsibility to determine what paperwork you needed.
The official source of that would have been the government of the
country you were going to.

mrtravel blabbled:

wrote:
Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

It was YOUR responsibility to determine what paperwork you needed.
The official source of that would have been the government of the
country you were going to.


Cretinous...


--
Best
Greg

On Sep 12, 11:41 pm, mrtravel wrote:
wrote:
Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

It was YOUR responsibility to determine what paperwork you needed.
The official source of that would have been the government of the
country you were going to.

While this is true, the discussion is more about what happens if, in
spite of being responsible for paperwork, passenger shows up at the
destination (or transit) without it?

When you travel for example by car and show up at the port of entry/
border crossing, if you don't have proper paperwork, authorities can
simply turn you back. However, in case of air travel they can't do
that. So how do countries ensure that this doesn't happen? The only
logical answer is - through the airlines. There is nothing other than
the airline standing between the passenger without papers and the port
of entry at the destination airport. There is nothing other than the
airline preventing someone without any paperwork whatsoever, or money
to return, to board the plane to anywhere in the world. I am sure
there are millions of people who would rather live at, for example,
Frankfurt Airport Terminal 1, than in their own countries. So it seems
only logical that governments would put regulations in place that
would prevent airlines from unloading planeloads of people who had
money to buy the ticket but don't care or have a clue about
immigration regulations or even want to try to sneak in. Why are
airlines going out of their way (at least that is my experience with
airlines) to ensure you have proper papers (passport/visa/status in
destination/transit country) even before issuing you a ticket and
certainly before boarding the plane? If they can simply unload you
wherever you want to go, why would they bother with all the checks? So
government regulations surely must exist to prevent these situations
from occurring. If they exist, these regulations are obviously not
widely publicised so passengers are not aware of them. After all, they
wouldn't concern passengers directly and passengers wouldn't be able
to call to them directly. However, knowing about them would help
passengers deal with airlines in some situations.

So, when you say it is YOUR (passenger's) responsibility, you are
quoting airline's regulations/rules, which we all agree to by buying
the ticket from them, and that is how the airline is protecting
itself. No one is disputing that. I am just saying that there are
other regulations that hold THEM responsible for the same thing, and
that ULTIMATELY, it is their responsibility because governments don't
care about what the passenger and airline have agreed to - they would
want the passenger back where he/she came from and since they don't
have any means to put that responsibility on a single person they
would have to put it onto the airlines. I don't see how in that
situation the airline could hold the passenger responsible except by
charging the passenger for the trip back. But what if the passenger
for example doesn't have the money or refuses to pay? I suspect the
answer is that the airline would still have to take the passenger
back. Maybe they can later sue the passenger for the cost incurred but
I never heard about something like that happening.

So, if this regulation indeed exists, it is more accurate to say that
it is your (passenger's) responsibility until you board the plane in
that the airline can refuse to board you if you don't have the proper
paperwork and wouldn't even have to refund you in that case. But after
they let you board, you are their responsibility and it is their
ultimate responsibility. Again, that is why airlines check to ensure
you have proper papers before letting you on the plane.

On Sep 12, 10:06 pm, wrote:

snip

Also, I am afraid that, while the regulation that holds airlines
responsible for presenting passengers to immigration without proper
documents seems to apply in my situation, it won't help me in any way
after the fact. It seems that the implied airline responsibility is
primarily towards the government and not towards the passenger.

That's absolutely true. You are responsible for yourself.

So, If I was aware of this regulation and raised the issue with the German
immigration authorities at the airport instead of with the airline, I
might've been able to put the airline on the spot and negotiate with
them to send me to Belgrade which would be cheaper for them to do than
send me back to Canada.

I doubt it. The airline's responsibility is to take you back to where
you boarded.

The only thing is, I did explain my problem to German immigration
officer(s) and police, and they didn't mention this, nor offered any
help/advice/assistance.

Immigration is not a travel service. They are not there to provide
traveller's with advice.

If this regulation really exists and applies to EU countries,

It applies in most countries (if not all).

the immigration officers are either not aware of it,
are simply ambivalent or would rather take the easy way out by sending
the passenger back to the airline to deal with them.

They *are* aware and that's what the regulation says. You become the
airline's problem, not theirs.

It really felt
weird that both the airline and the German authorities didn't seem to
care that there is a stranded passenger at the airport.

Why would they? They didn't cause the problem. You're not their
responsibility. This is not a "customer service" function for either
of them. You attempted to illegally enter the country (apparently not
intentionally; they might have just arrested you if they thought you
were doing it on purpose) and they are enforcing the law.

Your fault. Your problem. Your responsibility to fix.

I wonder what
would happen if I didn't have the money to pay for the change.

If you bought your original ticket with a credit card they would
charge the same card. Otherwise they would take legal action to
collect the cost.

While
there at the Frankfurt airport trying to resolve my problem, I heard
that this is actually quite common and that even mothers with children
are sometimes left to spend the night at the airport because of the
situations like this.

I don't know if "quite common" is truly accurate, but it's not rare.
It happens. I know of two other cases. In one case (possibly similar
to yours) a friend was travelling on business to Indonesia. He works
in the US and I guess the travel agent assumed he was an American, so
they told him he could get a visa on arrival. He's not an American
citizen and his country isn't eligible for VOA. They sent him back. He
flew to Singapore and they wouldn't let him in because of his problem
in Indonesia. He ended up flying back to the US.

In another case a friend was flying to India for a one day meeting in
Mumbai. He arrived in Calcutta with a ticket to Mumbai same day and an
outgoing ticket (Mumbai to London) the next. As an American citizen in
India for less than 72 hours he didn't need a visa. But the airline
changed the schedule for the outbound flight so he would be in India
longer than that. No visa. No entry. The airline flew him home. At his
expense (seems like they had changed the schedule *before* he started
his trip and notified him by e-mail, so it was his fault for not
researching the visa requirements).

Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

I have a better one. Use a reputable travel agent. First, they will
know the rules. Second, if they screw up they are on the hook
financially. In the second example I gave you above, the travel agency
reimbursed my friend the cost of all the tickets, including the forced
return, because they knew of the change and didn't tell him he had to
get a visa.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 12, 11:41 pm, mrtravel wrote:
wrote:
Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

charging the passenger for the trip back. But what if the passenger
for example doesn't have the money or refuses to pay? I suspect the
answer is that the airline would still have to take the passenger
back. Maybe they can later sue the passenger for the cost incurred but
I never heard about something like that happening.

Many countries impose a fine on the airline for
landing a person without the correct visa. This fine
is many times more than the cost of the flight back.

tim

"tim....." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 12, 11:41 pm, mrtravel wrote:
wrote:
Conclusion: Do your homework people because airline might not.
Otherwise, you will most probably "find left holding the short end of
the stick".

Is this the right conclusion?

charging the passenger for the trip back. But what if the passenger
for example doesn't have the money or refuses to pay? I suspect the
answer is that the airline would still have to take the passenger
back. Maybe they can later sue the passenger for the cost incurred but
I never heard about something like that happening.

Many countries impose a fine on the airline for
landing a person without the correct visa. This fine
is many times more than the cost of the flight back.


The UK certainly does.

And fines ferry companies as well as airlines.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.