France, the culture wars over head scarves

B wrote in message . ..
On 11 Dec 2003 14:01:16 -0800, (meurgues) wrote:
This is the same sort of reasoning that led France to
forbid parents in Brittany giving Breton names to their children.

Ridiculous. I know many person with breton names : Soizic Corne,
etc... Recently their was a "stagiaire" named Lannick in my office.
Furthermore if some were tempted to do that in the 19th c., which I
don't know, that would have been contrary to the law even the one of
YEAR 11 which was requiring forenames already used in history and not
worst that the changing of emigrants names, arriving in Ellis island,
in a more anglo-saxon way.

I am trying to find the history of this practice. I saw a mention on a
Breton culture page that said that Breton names became possible in
1970. If you can find any specific references, I would appreciate it.
It certainly was more recent that the 19th century that the Breton
language was suppressed in France.

Here is the history : I went to Beaubourg BPI Library.

Forenames 1901-2001 statistics in metropolitan France, from :
http://noms.voila.fr/v2/welcome/default_voila.asp

Bretons/(and gaelic ?) forenames, that I knew before, notably because
of a famous person in france, from the list :
http://www.an-arvorig.com/03-contenu/article-399.php .
Most of them are saints and have a special day feast in the right
column :
KEYS : First name, then first mention in the 1901-2001 statistics of
the people STILL alive (with amount), then date of rise of the
popularity, (with maximum year/amount and date).
The deads being not taken in count, the amounts were certainly
superior at the beginning of the 20th century.

Guy 1901 (22) - 1909 (max. 7645 in 1948)
Just 1901 (1) - 1911 (max. 10 in 1926)
Viviane 1901 (2) - 1913 then 1919 (max. 2107 in 1956)
Yves 1901 (10) - 1914 (max. 5319 in 1951)
Hervé 1901 (10) - 1914 (max. 6359 in 1967)
Pol 1901 (1) - 1914 (max. 45 in 1998)
Corentin 1901 (2) 1921 then 1974 (max. 3913 in 1997)
Tanguy 1901 (1) 1940 then 1958 (max. 1210 in 2001)
Tristan 1901 (1) - 1951 (max. 1814 in 2001)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Malo 1902 (1) - 1960 (max. 337 in 2001)
Iseult+Yseult 1903 (1) - 1918 (max. 17 in 2001)
Tugdual 1908 (1) - 1974 (max. 23 in 2000)
Ronan 1911 (1) (max. 413 in 1980)
Loic 1914 (1) - 1937 (max. 3308 in 1988)
Yann 1914 (1) - 1943 (max. 3188 in 1973)
Morgane+Morgan 1914 (1) - 1968 (max. 4796 in 1993)
Nolwen+Nolween* 1944 (1) - 1966 (max. 97 in 2002)
Alan 1921 (1) - 1949 (max. 893 in 2001)
Gwenael 1939 (1) - 1949 (max. 341 in 1976)
Gwendal 1952 (1) - 1963 (max. 378 in 2001)
Tiphaine 1958 (1) - 1971 (max. 28 in 1987)
Solen+Solenn 1958 (1) - 1961 then 1966 (max. 347 in 1996)
Soizic 1966 (1) 1975 (max. 7 in 1977)

Ex. of bretons forenames looking like ridiculous words :
Salaun (salaud = *******...), Gralon (gras long), Gutual (gutural),
Samzun (Samsung) : amount in the statistics : 0
It seems that very rare forenames in the century period are not
mentionned.

Examples of foreign first names :
KEYS : First name, then first mention in the 1901-2001 statistics of
the people still alive (with amount), then date of rise of the
popularity.
Pablo 1906 (2) - 1954
Paolo 1913 (5) - 1926 then 1949
Pietro 1902 (4) - 1924
Maria 1901 (365)
Mary 1901 (4)
John 1901 (6) - 1919... then 1946...
Mohammed+Mohamed 1903 (1) - 1943 then 1947
Fatima 1918 (1) - 1934

My forenames (not breton !) :
Didier (my main forename) 1901 (1) - 1929 (bishop of Cahors)
Eric (my 2nd forename) 1901 (11) - 1941 (scandinavian?)

My own forename Didier only start to become popular in... 1929. I
don't know why and how it became better knowned by people then. Before
Didier was only the forename of an obscure bishop of Cahors from the
early Middle Ages and if there is no church or chapel in Cahors
bearing his name I suppose that it was simply forbiden during
centuries except for some few epigraphists and diocesan historians...
Today it's rather ridiculous since it was the name of a man who was
believing that he was a dog... in a french film.
That means that the popularity of names is mostly due to fashion
notably because of famous people (recently Nolween - a young singer -
or Gwendal - a sportsman - for example).

Before the french revolution (1789) :
The duchess of Britanny married the king of France in 1491 and the
edict of union took place in 1532. The church registers (birth,
etc...) were made mandatory in all France in 1539 by the ordonnance of
Villers Cotterets. In the first third of the 17th c. registers were
generalised and the variation of the writting of some forenames which
was important in the Middle Ages was consequently little by little
reduced and fixed (Guy, Viviane), including some written according to
french phonetics where french was spoken. But the annexion of
territories was still going on and foremanes of foreign origin were
consequently still possible (Alsace, Corsica, etc...). The canonic law
was then rather liberal (roman ritual II - 1, n°54 ; codex art. 761) :
when a forename was sounding bizarre to a priest it was accepted but
added in second position on the registers. In fact the forenames given
to the childrens were generally corresponding to names of saints,
including foreign ones and LOCAL ones, coming from what was called the
"fastes" : a general expression of roman times origin wich was
corresponding to the "sum" of many "calendars" as much unprecise and
diverse as the numerous (christian) regions from where they were
coming from and including the bible, the different books of rituals,
the diocesan and provincial martyrologues, the menologues of the
religious orders, the synodal instructions, etc...
After the Revolution :
By the law of september 25 1792 the church registers became civil ones
(kept by mayors) and the choice of first names became then totally
free.
The law of 6 fructidor year II (1794) just said that : "aucun citoyen
ne pourra porter de nom ou de prénom autre que ceux exprimés dans son
acte de naissance" (No citizen may bear a surname or forename other
than those stated on his birth certificate). The Code civil (CC) of
1804 kept nevertheless the possibility to change "names" in case of
"motivated demand" (art 4 of the Germinal year XI law of 1803). For
the forenames I don't know when it was made possible. It was at least
possible in 1962 according to the last alinea of art. 57 CC of that
date (The forenames which appear on a child's birth certificate may,
where there is a good and lawful reason, be amended by an order of the
tribunal de grande instance made on an application by the child or,
during the child's minority, by the child's legal representative) :
disposition now at art. 60 CC.
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr , choose Code civil.

When the revolutionary calendar was created in 1794 by Fabre
d'Eglantine (with names of vegetals (vegetables, fruits), minerals,
animals and farming tools and machines), which was of course not at
all intended to be used for the choice of forenames... some people
begun nevertheless to name their childrens commonly with names like
"betterave" (beetroot), "pulmonaire" (a plant) or "bithume" (a
mineral), for ex...
The law of 11 germinal year 11 (1803, not 1791) was made in reaction
to these excess, in order to protect the interests of the childrens,
even if this intention was not explicitly said in the law. The article
1 said : "les noms en usage dans les differents calendriers et ceux
des personnages connus de l'histoire ancienne pourront seuls être
portés sur les registres de l'état civil" (only names in use in the
various calendars, and those of known figures of ancient history may
be entered as forenames in birth registers). By "different calendars"
they mainly meant the religious ones (fastes) coming back to the
tradition of the Ancient Regime, like in the rest of Europe I suppose,
to which were added the names of persons knowned in "ancient" history.
In 1813 an "instruction ministérielle" precised the notion "ancient"
in the expression "ancient history" and defined it as the "Antiquity"
period. Nevertheless an "instruction" like a "circulaire
ministérielle" has no legal value at the difference of laws and
decrees, it was not said in the law that the calendars should not be
local ones or should only be french and so it was up to the
jurisprudency to precise and interpret the Code civil dispositions,
like generally in civil law in France. The "état civil" logically
depends of civil courts as it was judged and indicated in the first
"tables décennales" of the Conseil d'Etat (Recueil Lebon) starting in
1800 and reminded in a C.E. decision of 1925. On the other hand, I
have not the time to check what said the tables of the "Bulletin
civil" of the Cour de Cassation from 1800 to 1950..., which are in
fact concerned, because they are on microfilms at the BPI library and
difficult to use. Nevertheless, the older decisions that I found are
posterior to WWII and were quoted in a 1993 Code civil that I found,
the Jurisclasseur, the JCP weekly review and the Recueil Dalloz. In
fact it seems that this point was not bring to courts until WWII since
I found a 1937 Code civil without jurisprudency under art. 57 !
First I should remind that according to article 3 of the Code civil
taken a contrario, the foreigners can benefit of the "primauté du
statut personnel"/primacy of personnal status? (for ex. Appeal court
Paris 23 march 1888, DP 89, 2, 117). They can ask the application of
the "dispositions de fond" of their own laws, including so the choice
of first names, (opposed to the procedure dispositions : see Appeal
court Paris 17 february 1888, DP 90, 2, 5), if it's not contrary to
the french fundamental laws (the french "dispositions d'ordre public"
: see notably art. 6 of Code civil.
As you have seen above in the statistics going down to 1901 it was
possible to put foreign names in the french civil registers on the
metropolitan territory of France itself in 1901 at least (Mohammed,
John, Pedro, etc...). It was of course concerning foreigners but there
is no reason to believe that it could not have concerned french people
as well for 2 reasons : first the religious calendars were not defined
as only french (see below), second the names of persons knowned in
"ancient" history was allowing foreign names in itself (Cesar, Darius,
Confucius, etc...). But above all the interpretation of the expression
"ancient" history mooved with the time from Antiquity to Middle Ages,
and further... Probably in the middle of the 19th. c, Middle Ages
names of heroes (or ancesters notably in noble families) became in
fashion again (Yseult, Perceval, Enguerand, Tanneguy, Josselin,
Godefroy, Aymaury, etc...). So the expression "ancient history" turned
simply to correspond to the word "history", and finally to "family
traditions" of only few generations ago... (see below the 1966 IGEC).
By definition, this notion mooves with the time.
With the establishment of french non christian colonies, then
protectorates and territories, like the indian "comptoirs" in the 18th
c, or North Africa in 1830, the same evolution occured for foreign
forenames. I've asked for ex. to one of my collegues from Indian
origin coming from La Réunion island who told me that her family
choosed french citizenship in the 19th century and that, at least
since her great grand father born around 1890, all the member of her
family have indian forenames (hers is only Ambigai - indian names must
begin by a syllab corresponding to the day of birth). She knows as
well a chinese family for which it's the same case since the middle of
the 19th century too. In fact even if there was an a priori control of
the forenames, primarily intented to be made in the interest of the
child, it was not strange for a local "officier d'état civil" (mayor)
living in a local place to accept a local name which wasn't sounding
ridiculous to his hears because it was in use there (in Britanny :
Yseult, Tugdual, Loic, Yann in early 20th c. for ex. , see above), or
in Alsace, Corsica, Pays Basque (Bixente), etc... or above all in the
french colonies.
I don't know until when and how local people retained particular
"statuts civil personnels" /personnal civil status in the french
colonies, protectorates and territories (linked or not with french
citizenship), but in the lands included in the definition of "France",
according to the 1804 Code civil and even to the Ancient Regime laws,
foreigners can become french by birth in "France" (at their majority
in art. 44 of actual "Code de la nationalité"). Today "France" (as far
as citizenship is concerned) still includes territories far from the
metropole like Polynesia, etc... It includes as well New Caledonia,
Wallis and Futuna (3 kings...!) and Mayotte which still keeps some
particular civil "statut personnel", like the only coranic one of
Mayotte. This last one which concerns as well forenames for birth
certificates is traditional (rather different from the christian way
to name childrens) but was simplified by the ordonnance n°2000-218 of
8 march 2000.
About the problem to determine the application of "statuts civils" in
the time since the 19th c., I nevertheless found in an old Code civil
some few elements, like the decree of 27 april 1848 wich abolished
slavery and placed all the "french" under the "droit commun" (in
Mayotte, slavery was in fact abolished in 1846), the senatus-consulte
of 3 may 1854 and 14 july 1865, the Cremieux decree wich granted
french citizenship to the jews of North Africa in 1870, the law of 24
february 1875 following the 3rd republic constitution, wich stated
that Algeria, Guadeloupe, Martinique, La Réunion and the french
Indias, were french departements participating to the elections of
french senators notably, the treaty of 30 dec. 1880 wich granted
french citizenship to the polynesians, the law of 23 march 1882 on the
"état civil" of muslims in Algeria (they had apparently a coranic
"statut civil personnel" probably different from the christians too
for mariage and inheritance), the law of 24 april 1883 wich
generalised the Code de la nationalité to all the departements. But as
far as the civil registers are only concerned, in 1919 the algerians
for ex. were apparently concerned by some Code civil general
dispositions about the "actes de l'état civil" (for ex. art. 37 CC
concerning witnesses).
For the colonies, the law of 25 march 1915 granted citizenship to the
people of the colonies other than Algeria, Tunisia and Morroco
(dispositions arlready in use there?) in different cases, notably at
the condition of a stay superior to 10 years in the colony and a
"sufficient knowledge" of french language (art. 1-5°). But in all
these places it was apparently possible for french citizens, and at
least since 1915, to enter forenames of foreign origin in french civil
registers since there was obviously some "not judeo-christians" french
then and consequently probably in metropolitan France as well.
The problem is of course that a forename could have been considered
ridiculous in a place while it could have not been in another place or
at another time... Nevertheless, until the middle of the 20th c. it
was apparently extremely rare for somebody to not choose to use a
forename coming from his own "national" tradition. That was including
too the provinces of France concerned with old local names (with local
or "neo-local".. spellings : I don't know if the "k" is really
breton). I doubt that all... the first names mentionned in the breton
website quoted above were still knowned by locals in the 19th c. (they
include in fact gaelic names as well...), except for few historians
able to search in the old church registers. Many of them had simply
been forbiden since centuries even where local dialects were still in
use. And many breton names or other local names were in fact
rediscovered with the development of regionalist movements in the
60ies.
In the documentation quoted above, the first judicial decisions on
forenames only appear after WWII and it is clearly said in the
comments under the (tribunal) decision TGI Caen 20 december 1965 that
it was the FIRST to concern a local (and here breton) forename ! It
seems that nobody brought the argument concerning the choice of
forenames until the cour de Cassation before 1957... despite the fact
that there was of course no restriction to bring such a civil case to
civil courts. Just read the Bulletin Civil of the Cour de cassation
since 1800... So apparently french people had not much imagination
about unconventional forenames until WWII.
In the documents already quoted it is said that in quasi all the cases
the courts were favourable to the choosen forename. They give less
than a dozen of unaccepted forenames.
The first decision, in 1957, was Cass. Civ. 12 feb. 57 which accepted
the muslim forename Mouloud despite the refusal of a mayor. It was
recognised that the notion of religious names coming from "calendars"
was oecumenic with no distinction between religions.
Then occured the decision that you apparently heard about : appeal
court Rennes 9 jan. 62, followed in cassation by Cass. Civ. 12 nov.
64. The cassation court refused the "allocations familiales" (child
state money) to breton childrens simply because they were not existing
as french citizens on the civil registers. Dura lex sed lex... A mayor
had refused to register their breton names (Achobaran, Diwezha, Maiwen
and Gwendel), but the mother didn't do anything about that in
particular. She didn't contested the forenames refusal in itself to
the courts, only the state money refusal. So the courts didn't give
their opinion about local forenames then.
Nevertheless, because of the mediatic scandal wich then resulted in
France (as soon as the 1962 appeal court decision in fact), the
instruction ministérielle de l'état civil (IGEC) of 1955 (a far heir
to the one of 1813, of course modified since then, wich explains to
the mayors the way to use civil registers but has no legal value)
precised explicitly in 1962 that local names were possible in order
to... avoid a similar case : "prénoms consacrés par les usages locaux"
(see the following text of the 1966 IGEC below). But the IGEC was
simply reminding the laws without explicitly fordidding foreign or
local forenames before, as we have seen in the 1901-2001 statistics
(Mohammed, Loic, Yann, etc...).

The FIRST decision taken on local forenames (a breton one again... but
not "Asterix"...:+)) came with TGI Caen 20 dec. 1965. It stated on the
contrary that local names, like breton forenames (Mikelaig), were
acceptable. It just said that the "diminutif" (diminutive) Kelig was
not. In the commentary note of M. Malaurie (JCP, 66, II, 14626), it is
said that :
- "Mikelaig, which is a forename in use in Britanny, is acceptable
since in no way it is able to be contrary to the interest of the child
and it doesn't seem to present a ridiculous or extravagant form
"susceptible de porter préjudice" /able to injure the children. The
Germinal year XI law "renvoie" /send back to the different calendars
without precising that they are french, for ex. : TGI Colmar 17 feb.
1965 accepted danish forenames like Hjalmar and Sven. The "different
calendars" correspond to the (pre-revolutionary) christian "fastes"
(explained above), as diverse as the regionalism of the provincial and
diocesans rituals, martyrologues, menologues, (...etc...). Precisely,
by its origin and its mystical sense, the baptism forename is
compatible with all the regional particularisms and indifferent to
national borders". M. Malaurie reminded that, before, the cannonic law
was rather liberal too. On the contrary he sayed that a childish
diminutive name (diminutif enfantin) like Toto for Anatole, Milou for
Emile or Minou for Dominique (which are generally used for animals),
could injure the interests of the child. "Finally the only "juridique"
rule is the admission of the forename by "l'usage" /the use and so it
stays only one limit to the liberty of parents : the ridicule of the
forename."
So, far from rejecting local forenames, the first court decision ever
taken on this matter accepted, in themselves, such names and the
comments reminded the protection of the interests of the child wich
was the primary intention of the Germinal law.

I precise that M. Malaurie sayed too that it should not be taken in
count some "new" dispositions (then) which were not existing before,
about the "francisation" of names : law n°50-399 of 3 april 1950 (art.
4), apparently modified in 1965, 1972 and "abrogée" /suppressed in
1993, which allowed foreigners, BUT ONLY AT THEIR OWN DEMAND, to
choose french names and forenames at the occasion of their
naturalisation. Apparently the french state never imposed such changes
to a foreigner too.

The 1966 IGEC sayed :
CHOICE OF FORENAMES ... General principles ... Practical application
(a) It should, however, be observed that the impact of custom in this
field has considerably reduced the restrictions which were initially
placed on the acceptance of forenames by the provisions of the Law of
11 Germinal Year XI taken literally. It is true that these provisions
are of practical value in that they provide registrars of births,
deaths and marriages with a bulwark against innovations which appear
to them to be such as might later harm children's interests and which
would therefore be unacceptable. In practice, registrars of births,
deaths and marriages, who have to take the immediate decision whether
a forename is acceptable, can hardly be expected to compile a list of
the exact resources of the calendars and of ancient history in order
to determine whether a given forename is included in this heritage or
not. In practice they are required to use common sense when exercising
their discretion, so as to ensure that the law is applied with a
measure of realism and liberality, in other words in such a way that
the changes in social mores which have hallowed certain usages are not
ignored and that surviving LOCAL characteristics and even FAMILY
TRADITIONS which can be shown to exist are respected. Registrars must
not lose sight of the fact that it is for parents to choose forenames
and that, to the fullest extent possible, any wishes they may have
expressed should be taken into account. ... (b) In addition to the
forenames normally allowed within the strict limits of the Law of
Germinal, the following may therefore possibly be accepted, having
regard to the foregoing considerations and, where applicable, subject
to appropriate evidence being produced: 1. certain forenames of
mythological origin (such as Achille, Diane, Hercule, etc.); 2.
certain forenames peculiar to local languages of the national
territory (Basque, Breton, Provençal, etc.); 3. certain foreign
forenames (such as Ivan, Nadine, Manfred, James, etc.); 4. certain
forenames which correspond to words that have a specific meaning (such
as Olive, Violette, etc.) or even old surnames (such as Gonzague,
Régis, Xavier, Chantal, etc.); 5. compound forenames, provided that
they do not include more than two simple names (such as Jean-Pierre or
Marie-France but not, for example, Jean-Paul-Yves, which would be a
combination of three forenames). (c) Exceptionally, registrars of
births, deaths and marriages may also accept, but with some caution:
1. certain diminutives (such as 'Ginette' for Geneviève, 'Annie' for
Anne, or even 'Line', which is derived from feminine forenames
containing that ending); 2. certain shortened forms of double names
(such as 'Marianne' for Marie-Anne, 'Marlène' or 'Milène' for
Marie-Hélène, 'Maïté' for Marie-Thérèse, 'Sylvianne' for Sylvie-Anne,
etc.); 3. certain variations in spelling (for example Michèle or
Michelle, Henri or Henry, Ghislaine or Guislaine, Madeleine or
Magdeleine, etc.). (d) Ultimately, it would appear that registrars of
births, deaths and marriages should only refuse to enter names chosen
by parents which have not been demonstrably established as forenames
in France by sufficiently widespread use. Thus, in particular,
registrars should systematically refuse to enter forenames which are
purely whimsical or names which, by reason of their nature, meaning or
form cannot normally constitute forenames (surnames, names of objects,
animals or qualities, words used as stage names or forenames or as
pseudonyms, names that are onomatopoeic or recall political events).
....

In a judgment of 10 June 1981 the Court of Cassation stated that
"parents can IN PARTICULAR choose as forenames, subject to the general
reservation that, in the child's interest, they are not found to be
ridiculous, names in use in the various calendars ; and while no
official list of permitted forenames exists, there is no ground for
requiring that the calendar relied on emanate from an official
authority". So the notion of "calendar" is unfixed and unprecise.
In fact since the notion of religious "calendars" was so diverse and
since the choice and knowledge of forenames including compounds,
foreign and family traditions increased them exponentially, it has in
fact never been possible to make such an "official list". A very long
one indeed ! The better proof is that such a "list" simply doesn't
exists in the french "Journal officiel" and even before, in the
equivalent "Bulletin des Lois" or the "Recueil Isambert" of the
Ancient Regime...
Each decision was a "cas d'espèce". Nevertheless as we have seen in
the 1966 IGEC and until the new dispositions of the 1993 law, the
civil officers kept reluctance towards the invention of non existing
words, the use of things or place names and of certain diminutives as
forenames.
That's why among the "dozen" of refusal, are included two others
breton diminutives (quoted in the Code civil Dalloz) around the 70ies
(in 1968 notably, but they were not precised in the code), or some
names of places, and finally the cases of a name using the preposition
"de" and the one of a fruit (Cerise !!), despite the fact that another
fruit was accepted by TGI Paris 8 july 1975.
But that last case is very special. A court of appeal refused Cerise
(sherry). The Court of cassation struck down the decision and returned
it to the appeal court of Bourges. But the rather disobedient court
refused again... Cerise as "ridicule" (C.A Bourges 2 march 1983) and
since the parents gave up and didn't returned to the Cour de
cassation, we will never know what would have been its last
reaction... I don't think that the Bourges judges were still
traumatised by the revolutionary calendar like in 1803 but it is
probable that they feared the jokes that could have been made with
this fruit, like "c'est la cerise sur le gateau", since some fruit
words like "poire" (pear) or "pomme" (apple), "noix" (nut), etc... are
pejoratives in french. But Cerise is not so ridiculous IMO : the
"usage" finally admited "things" like Jade (mineral) and even
"monuments without ridiculous, pejorative or complex consonance"...!
There is even an actress called Bulle OGIER (bubble...) but I don't
know if it's her real forename.
Concerning the preposition "de", the decision Cass. civ. 1.10.86 said
that in order to protect the interest of the children the preposition
"de", in "Fleur de Marie" was "too fantaisist" (the use of "de" could
also be complex "Fleur de Marie de Granville de Boucher de Perthes,
etc..." for ex., since "de" is also used for names (notably nobles
ones). The refusal was unexpectedly later confirmed by the european
court of human rights by its decision 24 oct.1996 GUILLOT c/Fr :
http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/hudoc/View...&RelatedMode=0
Finally, with Cass. 4 april 1991 (Bull. Civ. I, n°117) took place the
decision wich stated that the control should be a posteriori and not a
priori, since : "the choice made by the parents imposes itself to the
third parts and to the administration".
That lead to the law n°93-22 of 8 january 1993 (art. 3-1-III) wich
suppressed the a priori control. Now it's up, no more to the parents,
but to the mayors to go to courts, if they find the choosen forenames
ridiculous, pejorative, complex or fantaisis :
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr , see above art. 57 of Code civil.
"A child's forenames shall be chosen by its father and mother ... The
registrar of births, deaths and marriages shall immediately enter the
chosen forenames on the birth certificate. Any forename recorded on
the birth certificate may be chosen as the usual forename. Where the
said forenames or any one of them, either TAKEN ALONE OR LINKED to the
other forenames or to the surname, appear to the registrar to be
CONTRARY TO THE HILD'S INTERESTS or to the right of third parties to
protect their surname, the registrar of births, deaths and marriages
shall immediately so inform State Counsel, who may then refer the
matter to the family-affairs judge. If the judge considers that the
forename is contrary to the child's interests or infringes the right
of third parties to protect their surnames, he shall order the name to
be deleted from the registers of births, deaths and marriages. If the
parents fail to choose an alternative name compatible with the
aforementioned interests, he shall give the child another forename of
his own choosing. The decision shall be noted in the margin of all
documents relating to the child's civil status."
For ex. : Jean- Aymar Dubouleau... (I'm fed up with work)... :+)
THE END... OUF !

other comments below

As far as I'm concerned, this tension between private beliefs and
public duties is a healthy one. However, there has to be debate and
compromise. I don't understand why only France has this huge problem
with its Muslim students. Other European countries have dealt with
this problem much more flexibly.

For the reason that France is the only lay country in western Europe
as far as I know. All the other having officialised religions in their
institutions and giving more or less privileges to the one or the
others (MPs, money, etc...), they can't consequently deny to the ones
what they have accepted for the others. France wich is lay simply
doesn't care of these "rapports de force".

Is France really the only lay country in Europe? In what sense do you
mean "lay"? As far as I know, many other countries have no official
religion. Germany and the Netherlands, for instance, have no official
religion. If "lay" means that religion must be hidden, it become sort
of an official secularism, which is almost a religions itself.


I precised "as far as I know". There are different graduations in
laicity. I meant a country with laicity written in its constitution
(article 1) and which doesnt pay clergies or favour some officially.
Perhaps Switzerland too (?). But what I'm sure is that there is no
other country in western Europe where the principle of laicity is so
strong, considered as a fundamental ground in society and generally
applied. For ex. the french are the only one to oppose the reference
to christian values in the new european constitution. I remember a
graphic some years ago in The Economist or Time magazine where the
french where placed just above the average, near... the italians and
the spanish on the scale of absence of religious belief and values,
much lower to Germany and Sweden, but above the US (I didn't know that
so many americans go to church). When you consider that less than 15 %
of the french go to church (pratiquants) and that France is certainly
one, if not the most dechristianised, country in western Europe (like
Czekoslovakia for ex.) that says long about the clichés that the
anglo-saxons have about France and the seriousness of the polls...
made in these newspapers... !

In the US, public schools are "lay" in the sense that there is no
mention of religion in the schools (although some schools are
beginning to flout this law). This means, for instance, that no
Christmas carols are sung and no Christmas displays are allowed.
However, within reason, the students are permitted to dress as their
religion requires. Head scarves are widely worn. The US also has a
very large Muslim population.

Finally, I find totally ridiculous the choice of different hours for
girls and boys in swimming pools since in France we have the habit of
mixity wich is the general rule. As you sayed I don't see what
necessary reason could justify that.

Like it or not, Europe is becoming a country of immigrants and what
seems perfectly reasonable to a French person may offend the
sensibilities of the new residents. To insist that they instantly
become French in their most private beliefs only generates hostility.
Surely their children and grandchildren will be assimilated all too
well. The only alternative would be to preselect immigrants and accept
only those who profess themselves willing to adapt, but I don't like
that idea either. And usually until a person arrives in a new country,
they don't realize what they will find offensive. For example, when I
came to Italy I felt totally ready to accept the cultural differences
that I would find. But I do find the heavy hand of the Catholic Church
a bit much. (I'm sure many Catholics in the US would be equally
annoyed by the way their Church behaves in Italy.) I'm now an Italian
citizen and I feel entitled to criticize. But if you are right, I
should bite my tongue and bow to the superior right of Italian
culture.

The principle of laicity is different from nationality.

didier Meurgues

-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Dans l'article ,
(meurgues) a écrit :


I am trying to find the history of this practice. I saw a mention on a
Breton culture page that said that Breton names became possible in
1970. If you can find any specific references, I would appreciate it.
It certainly was more recent that the 19th century that the Breton
language was suppressed in France.

Here is the history : I went to Beaubourg BPI Library.

Dider, this is an absolutely wonderful post. I plan to keep it permanently,
because it tells me everything I always wanted to know about French naming
practices. Thank you so much for doing the research.

I have always been interested in first names, since I detest my own. It is
Donna, which means "lady" in Italian. Being neither Italian, or much of a
lady, it is a mismatch. I had some trouble with it when I lived in the US,
notably misspelling, because although it is a common first name there now,
when I was a child it was rare. According to a book I saw, it only became a
recognized first name around 1920. I was born in 1935.

Since I moved to France, 30 years ago, "Donna" has become my cross to bear.
No one has ever heard of the name here. A scholarly article I wrote was
cited by a French author of a scholarly book. That's the good news. The
bad news is that no one will ever know it, since in the book I became "E.
Donna." I had a chance to Frenchify my first name when I was naturalized
French in 1988, but by then it was a bit late. I was already in my fifties,
and there were simply too many official documents I would have had to
change.

But enough of my personal history. Once again, thanks for the wonderful
post.

Donna Evleth

"Donna Evleth" wrote in message ...
Dans l'article ,
(meurgues) a écrit :


I am trying to find the history of this practice. I saw a mention on a
Breton culture page that said that Breton names became possible in
1970. If you can find any specific references, I would appreciate it.
It certainly was more recent that the 19th century that the Breton
language was suppressed in France.

Here is the history : I went to Beaubourg BPI Library.

Dider, this is an absolutely wonderful post. I plan to keep it permanently,
because it tells me everything I always wanted to know about French naming
practices. Thank you so much for doing the research.

Thank you Donna,

IMO your first name (I found forename in the translations but you use
first name) fits very well with your surname and is not ridiculous.
Mine is worst because of the repeted syllab DI which could be judged a
bit childish (you know what means "didine"... I suppose...(1). So when
I meet an english speaking person I tell him to pronounce DID
YEAAHH... :+) instead of DI DI YEH (like in "Hi, Didier..."!)You have
not this repetition problem. Finally Donna is rather elegant IMO. It
reminds Madonna or Monna Lisa. And isn't there a US female stylist
caled Donna Karan?

I apologise to have been a bit naughty with you at the beginning....
Didier Meurgues
(1) the penis of a baby....!!!!


I have always been interested in first names, since I detest my own. It is
Donna, which means "lady" in Italian. Being neither Italian, or much of a
lady, it is a mismatch. I had some trouble with it when I lived in the US,
notably misspelling, because although it is a common first name there now,
when I was a child it was rare. According to a book I saw, it only became a
recognized first name around 1920. I was born in 1935.

Since I moved to France, 30 years ago, "Donna" has become my cross to bear.
No one has ever heard of the name here. A scholarly article I wrote was
cited by a French author of a scholarly book. That's the good news. The
bad news is that no one will ever know it, since in the book I became "E.
Donna." I had a chance to Frenchify my first name when I was naturalized
French in 1988, but by then it was a bit late. I was already in my fifties,
and there were simply too many official documents I would have had to
change.

But enough of my personal history. Once again, thanks for the wonderful
post.

Donna Evleth