France, the culture wars over head scarves

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:34:43 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:

Worrying about franglais is relatively harmless; attempting to
prohibit people from behaving in accordance with their religious
conviction when that behaviour does not impinge on anybody else is not
harmless: it's oppressive.

So you would support the right of someone to wear a KKK outfit or Nazi
uniform to work or school, right?

Wrong.

In the USA there are no laws prohibiting the wearing such items
in public, so far as I know; I believe such laws would be
considered unconstitutional as an infringement on the free
expression of political opinion. Nor, are there laws prohibiting
the wearing of such to school. Many school districts probably
have dress-code regulations that would prohibit the wearing of
political dress, but not KKK or Nazi specifically. Because school
kids are minors, and because schools are not considered public
areas, the constitutionality issue is evaded, although a
regulation that specifically prohibited KKK or Nazi items would
probably be challengable on constitutional grounds.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:21:58 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:

On 11/12/03 15:26, in article , "B
Vaughan" wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:02:55 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:

I will comment on those items I felt commenting necessary.


If many young Catholics don't want to go to Mass, the government has no reason
to outlaw going to Mass.

The other items were about excluding visible signs of religious association,
which applies to Christians also as well as any political declartion (like
political buttons for a particular party, etc).

My analogy was not intended to address the location of the behaviour,
but the fact that you seemed to justify the French policy by a
statement that more Muslims opposed head scarves than approved them.

In other words, ethnically French means purged of all ethnic
diversity? This is the same sort of reasoning that led France to
forbid parents in Brittany giving Breton names to their children.

France has a list of names which you can give you children, yes.

I don`t know of Breton or Basque names are forbidden? This is the
first time I have heard of that. Do you have any information on that
law and how the EU situation might have changed it.

Maybe the issue doesn't get much press in France.

I gave a quick look on the www.google.fr and found nothing quickly.

I have found reference to the issue on google.co.uk, but can't find
anything with dates. I've read about it at various times in the past.
I remember reading that the restrictions had been loosened, but I
don't know when.

I myself would find it objectionable that parents can't choose any
name they please for their child. (I know that not only France has
these restrictions.)
-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Padraig Breathnach writes:

So you would support the right of someone to wear a KKK outfit or Nazi
uniform to work or school, right?

Wrong.

Explain why the KKK or Nazi outfit is unacceptable, whereas religious
garments are.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:28:33 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:

On 11/12/03 16:36, in article , "Charles
Hawtrey" wrote:

Probably for the same reason that the Academie Française worries over
the incursion of terms such as "email" into the language;

Are you aware of the anti-Hispanic sentiment in the USA!!

Private sentiment is very different from government policy.

Language protectionism is pretty strong, Anglos don`t want any instruction
in Spanish.

In fact, most local governments in areas with a significant Hispanic
presence make sure that all material is available in Spanish and
English. My sister is a social worker in an area with only a small
Hispanic presence, but she and her co-workers have been required to
learn basic Spanish so that they can at least negotiate the first
contact with clients.

Another fact is that the education establishment is mostly intent on
keeping Spanish language instruction. The biggest opposition is
usually from Hispanic parents who don't want their children put in
bilingual classes whether they like it or not. They feel it should be
optional, while the teachers' unions are afraid that making it
optional will put lots of bilingual instruction teachers out of work,

Languages don`t need protecting, they take a course of evolution which
is largely uncontrolled by those who speak it.

And in fact, the efforts to make English the official language of the
US have mostly fizzled out.
-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Dans l'article , Go Fig
a écrit :


In article ,
"Donna Evleth" wrote:


Dans l'article , B
a écrit :


As far as I'm concerned, the government should make no rules about the
wearing of any religious garb unless absolutely necessary. I can see
that it would be necessary to forbid the wearing of a face veil for an
identity card photo and it might be necessary to forbid wearing a
Roman toga while on duty as a firefighter. However, in the case of
headscarves (or yarmulkes) in school, I don't see any reason why the
government or the school should have anything to say about it. The
fact that many Muslims don't want to wear veils is irrelevant. If many
young Catholics don't want to go to Mass, the government has no reason
to outlaw going to Mass.

One of the problems in the schools involves course material. The scarves
are not really compatible with physical education (required in France as it
is in the US) or with chemistry labs. Chemistry is optional, depending on
the student, but physical education is not. The physical education
requirement has often been gotten around by the family providing false
medical certificates, so that the girls will be excused from PE, so that
they don't have to remove their scarves at any time. I don't approve of
this. I do not approve of a law banning the headscarves, but I do feel that
everyone should respect the school curriculum.

Donna Evleth



Do you think they should have to remove the scarf to get a picture for a
driver's license ?

Not necessarily. It depends on the kind of scarf, and whether it gives a
good view of the face.

Donna Evleth

jay
Thu, Dec 11, 2003


--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Dans l'article , Mxsmanic
a écrit :


Go Fig writes:

Do you think they should have to remove the scarf to get a picture for a
driver's license ?

Yes. Hair is an important part of identification. The whole purpose of
a scarf among Muslims is to hide, so clearly it conflicts with the
purpose of ID photos, which is to reveal.

I don't quite agree here. It is too easy to change the color of one's hair.
Being a bottle blonde who just went to the beauty shop today, I know
something about that. I am very sure I would look a great deal different if
I allowed my hair to go to its natural gray.

Donna Evleth

On 11/12/03 20:34, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

but the French attempt to fix the problem by simply outlawing
English words and coming up with French translations for them.


When have the outlawed English words? The use of French
is only required in official documents, no other domain.
There is no general requirement

Words otherwise are used according to their practicality.

If you google www.google.fr for

"e-mail" you get 3,800,000 hits

the recent suggested alternative is

"courriel", which gets 188,000 hits

and older term is too long

"courrier électronique" gets 200,000 hits

So obviously "e-mail" will stick. Nobody in France is
going to change the "Stop" signs into French for instance,
one will still park in a "parking" or buy a fancy apartment
in a place which has "standing". But the French will still
say "merde".

Official Government documents might require one of the two French
representations but rest of the French world will use "e-mail".
That is consistent in order than everybody speaks and reads
the same language.

Next, the lab I was in published nearly everything in English.
Nobody came with an order to published only in French or even
some of the time. A really dictatorial linguistic policy
would require that. Of the over 100 articles I publish
not one is in French. Ironically a couple are in Spanish because
my Cuban colleagues wanted to publish in Spanish. I had
to do my yearly reports in French but that was the only
imposition. That is a reasonable one.

Basically, this whole language thing has been exaggerated not
by the French but by the Americans.


Earl

On 11/12/03 20:37, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

Does the Koran explicitly require any type of covering? I've read the
Koran in the past but I don't recall what it says (if anything) on this
topic.

If the Koran doesn't say so, it's not Islam.


I think there is an imposition of "modest dress" for women. But in even
Arab males dressed from head to foot in Arabia!


Earl

On 11/12/03 20:40, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

Earl Evleth writes:

They do funny things anyway, the elected Giscard to their body today.

Giscard's career ambitions have been to accumulate as many honors as
possible. At least that is my impression. I read once that he quit the
Freemasons when he found out that he couldn't skip levels and just go
right to the top.

He wanted his family inscribed among the Nobility of France, this was
refused. The d'Estaing part was acquired by his grandfather buying
a Chateaux. Of the some 6000 family names claimed (by those having
them) to be in the Nobility only about 1500 are authentic.

Language protectionism is pretty strong, Anglos don`t want any
instruction
in Spanish.

Neither do Hispanics, if they want their kids to succeed in the United
States.

I think I will let Hispanics answer that one.

Most European aspiring parents want their children to know more than
their mother tongue.

Since the Hispanics will eventually take over a portion of the USA
they have a vested interest in not losing their language and culture.


Earl

B wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:02:55 +0100, Earl Evleth
wrote:



This is a ongoing battle in France over the head scarves.

Some wish to ban them in schools or worn by public employees.

Slightly more (49%) of the Muslim women in France were polled
to be AGAINST the wearing of the scarves than for (41%). So
the idea that this is purely a conflict between the Christian
and Muslim communities is not exactly true.

As far as I'm concerned, the government should make no rules about the
wearing of any religious garb unless absolutely necessary.

That's exactly what was saying the jurisprudency until now. The
jurisprudency was only accepting schools regulations forbiding scarves
in chemistry and sport when they could be dangerous. Consequently some
muslim girls are not doing sport since there can be too some medical
dispenses for sport. Nevertheless it poses more problems to evaluate
schoolchildrens EQUALLY notably at the exams which are equal and
national in France like the BAC if some don't want to do all the
matters of the curiculum or prefer to put themselves in danger for
stupid religious reasons of wich public schools wich are lay by
definition don't care. The public school is religiously NEUTRAL for
all and the teatchers just consider that it's up to anyboby, who
doesn't agree, to go in a private school if he wants to show
conspicuously (ostensiblement) his religious belief. The situation
would be different if there were no private schools at all.
In any school there is regulations. Some impose to wear uniforms, some
don't mix girls and boys, some consider that religions have not to
interfere in their curiculum. French public schools just deal with
religious foods by normally offering several dishes to choose.
I heard on radio that there is about 1500 teenage girls in french
public schools with scarves wich represent roughly 50 classrooms and 2
or 3 schools. So a very small minority. There are much more at the
university where they had few problems until now because they are
tolerated as adults. On this amount of 1500, the teenage girls who are
expelled because they do proselytism contrarily to the principle of
laicity and annoy the others, after decisions taken in common by the
school teatchers, are counted only by units every year. But this is
often mediatised a lot since a few years.
I know an adult woman with a black muslim head scarf to whom nodody
tells anything, but in some case apparently there are problems too,
since for the first time this year I heard the case of a mediatised
case in an administration (Paris).
I suppose that it's this multiplication of cases which pushed the
governement to announce a law (to which I was first hostile).

I can see
that it would be necessary to forbid the wearing of a face veil for an
identity card photo and it might be necessary to forbid wearing a
Roman toga while on duty as a firefighter. However, in the case of
headscarves (or yarmulkes) in school, I don't see any reason why the
government or the school should have anything to say about it.

It has to say about it if the specificity of this very school requires
religious neutrality. It says nothing if it's not the case.

The
fact that many Muslims don't want to wear veils is irrelevant. If many
young Catholics don't want to go to Mass, the government has no reason
to outlaw going to Mass.

4) Educators don`t like displays and especially anything which
interfers with their educational mission. That mission is
to put out ethnically French students, white, black or brown,
they must be French all educated in the same manner.

In other words, ethnically French means purged of all ethnic
diversity?

Ethnical diversity ? Do you think that we are painting the blacks in
pink here or that curry, or couscous is forbiden by law ?

This is the same sort of reasoning that led France to
forbid parents in Brittany giving Breton names to their children.

Ridiculous. I know many person with breton names : Soizic Corne,
etc... Recently their was a "stagiaire" named Lannick in my office.
Furthermore if some were tempted to do that in the 19th c., which I
don't know, that would have been contrary to the law even the one of
1791 which was requiring first names already used in history and not
worst that the changing of emigrants names, arriving in Ellis island,
in a more anglo-saxon way.

So how do Muslims girls take the required swimming lessons
with scarves on? The Islamic religious right does not want their girls in
bathing suits much less without their scarves! Other sports activities are
hard to participate in with scarves on. The religious right do not want
their girls taking biology classes where sex is discussed.

In a diverse society, schools have to do their best to accommodate the
beliefs of their various minorities. When I was a child, my family
belonged to a small religious sect that forbid dancing. My school had
folk dances classes as part of physical education. I was exempted from
these classes. Other children were Jehovah's Witnesses and were exempt
from the "saluting of the flag", an exercise that was almost universal
in my childhood but that had disappeared by the time my children were
in school.

There's a difference between not participating to a lesson, by defect,
which is exceptionaly possible in France, and deambulating with a
"pink tchador", pushing the other girls to do the same.

In Pennsylvania, where I grew up, Amish children weren't supposed to
go to school beyond elementary school. This was a tough one, but the
state compromised by requiring the Amish families to send their
children to their (private) elementary schools until the eighth grade
and then to organize formal "apprenticeship" training at home for
another two years, for instance on the family farm.

It is required in France to go to school until a certain age. 16 I
think. But you can do it at home with a professor too, in a private
school or by mail, etc... Nevertheless if you don't give education to
your childrens it's punished by law.

More recently, a young girl in New Jersey who was a committed
vegetarian and animal rights activist won in court the right to be
able to study biology without having to dissect animals. The court
ordered the school to find some other way of teaching her anatomy, for
instance with computer simulations.

You are not obliged to dissect animals. I made a BAC with biology
specialisation. When one day we were asked to dissect frogs for the
electrical experiment on their heart, those who didn't want to dissect
just looked since we did it by couples of 2 persons.

As far as I'm concerned, this tension between private beliefs and
public duties is a healthy one. However, there has to be debate and
compromise. I don't understand why only France has this huge problem
with its Muslim students. Other European countries have dealt with
this problem much more flexibly.

For the reason that France is the only lay country in western Europe
as far as I know. All the other having officialised religions in their
institutions and giving more or less privileges to the one or the
others (MPs, money, etc...), they can't consequently deny to the ones
what they have accepted for the others. France wich is lay simply
doesn't care of these "rapports de force".
Second because the french muslim community is far superior to any
other in western europe and consequently has automatically generated
more problems with fundamentlist attitude.
First I was against a law considering that the actual jurisprudency
was enough. But I've ask informations to someone working with me. She
told me that where she lives the teenage girls who don't wear scarves
are insulted and treated of whores. But some consider too the scarf as
a fashion or wear it by conviction. Just next to her flat in
Cergy-Pontoise, wich is a rather normal area, there is a couple wich
forbids their girl of 10 years old to play with anybody non muslim,
oblige her to wear a black tchador from top to toes and send her to a
private muslim school with teatchers choosen by Saudi Arabia. I'm
wondering if she likes that.
I have changed a little my mind because some really exagerate and put
in jeopardy the liberty of those girls.
Finally, I find totally ridiculous the choice of different hours for
girls and boys in swimming pools since in France we have the habit of
mixity wich is the general rule. As you sayed I don't see what
necessary reason could justify that.

didier Meurgues

-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup