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#52
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, B Vaughan wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, the government should make no rules about the wearing of any religious garb unless absolutely necessary. The French attitude is not only that the state should be neutral in matters of religion, but also that it should be neutral regarding whether one should believe in religion or not. Any expression of religious opinion in a state context -- and public schools are obviously run by the state -- is unacceptable. American presidents like to say "God bless America"; the French find this shocking and unacceptable. (And I agree.) -- Yves Bellefeuille , Ottawa, Canada Francais / English / Esperanto Esperanto FAQ: http://www.esperanto.net/veb/faq.html Rec.travel.europe FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/travel/europe/faq |
#53
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
Well it was done in the US; the plural marriages of Mormonism were
outlawed in US. Although as I understand it there are still some small pockets of resistance in the more remote corners of Utah and Arizona. Dunno if Europe allows plural marriages, anybody? -- wf. Padraig Breathnach wrote: Worrying about franglais is relatively harmless; attempting to prohibit people from behaving in accordance with their religious conviction when that behaviour does not impinge on anybody else is not harmless: it's oppressive. I am quite willing to tell my French friends that. A friend who is not prepared to tell you when you are getting something wrong is not a good friend. -- PB The return address has been MUNGED |
#54
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
(Yves Bellefeuille) staggered to the nearest keyboard and
wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, (Charles Hawtrey) wrote: Probably for the same reason that the Academie Française worries over the incursion of terms such as "email" into the language; I'm always amused when anglophones get all excited about the Academie francaise. They think that it has much more importance than it really does. I've worked as a professional translator-revisor for over ten years and I've never even *seen* the "Dictionnaire de l'Academie". "Excited" isn't quite the right word. I can't think of a single word that fits, but we (if I may speak for Anglophones) tend to think the pronouncements of the Academie francaise are silly but harmless, like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. The Academie probably gets more attention because its actions seem consistent with certain stereotypes about French cultural chauvinism. -- hambu n hambu hodo |
#55
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OT: France, the culture wars over head scarves
Looks like Zachary Taylor didn't do his job?
Earl Evleth wrote: Since the Hispanics will eventually take over a portion of the USA they have a vested interest in not losing their language and culture. Earl |
#56
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
Yves Bellefeuille writes:
The French attitude is not only that the state should be neutral in matters of religion, but also that it should be neutral regarding whether one should believe in religion or not. Any expression of religious opinion in a state context -- and public schools are obviously run by the state -- is unacceptable. Explain state-owned churches, then. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
#57
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
On 12/12/03 0:40, in article 9i7Cb.207$J77.76@fed1read07, "Miles"
wrote: Charles Hawtrey wrote: Which Anglos? Maybe a few protectionists. The "English-only" movement is generally regarded as a fringe group. In fact Spanish is by far the most commonly studied foreign language in the USA. English only is not for the preservation of culture and language. It's to stop unneccesary expenses in having to print all government forms and documents in multiple languages. There is not need for it. When I travel to Mexico I do not demand that they talk to me in English and give me only English papers to fill out. Sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. I will learn the spanish needed to be able to communicate properly in another country. The English only movement is not to prevent spanish from being taught. It's only for official government communications and documents. How many languages should be printed up and who pays for it? In France, English is widely accepted professionally, out of necessity. As I wrote, all my articles and almost all of the French colleagues articles were in English. I was hired into the CNRS without speaking French, it was not a condition for my employment. My professional competence and what I would bring to the group were the main considerations. It was assumed that I would learn French. Since all verbal activity in a French lab is in French, one does learn French. I have had American colleagues who went to Germany or Holland, same thing, they learn the language out of everyday necessity. People coming to give seminars in France can give them in English, Germans scientists often did. I can`t imagine an invited foreign speaker at an American University speaking in his or her mother tongue. And obviously speaking English well is a condition for obtaining a post at an American University. French would be required for those teaching here too. But the French are also quite tolerant of those who speak French poorly as long as they are on a learning curve. The French will even allow Americans to take driving tests for a French drivers license with a English speaking agent! Speaking a "latin" languages gives one a feeling for others. In fact years ago a group of "latin speaking" quantum chemists formed an international group at which the talks were given in the mother tongue of each speaker. Scientists from Spain, France, italy, Portugal and South Ameerican gave talks. One could understand what each individual was saying because using visual aids allowed one to see tables or figures which explained things too. So while one did not get every word, one understood. Scientific English is stylized in a way that those who do not need to speak perfectly in face-to-face encounters. They usually do. But I have corrected a lot of papers for French colleagues, some wrote better English than I did. My wife also aided those who did better since she has a eye for errors. While Americans have the notorious reputation of not speaking other languages, this is not as true as one might think. I would say that about half the American seminar givers in our lab spoke reasonable French. But they are under no international pressure to do so, so many do not. Of all the nationalities the Germans seemed to be the most multi-lingual (rulling aside the Swiss). We hired a number of Germans as University teachers in France over the last 10 years. All those I encountered spoke good French and English. We have one Black friend, Cecil, living in the South Central LA war zone of Watts-Lynwood who speaks and writes excellent French. He communicates daily with people in France by the internet, so his writing is quite good. He also has spent considerable amount of time in Africa. He is a giant of a man, 6ft 5 inches and at least 250 pounds. You can see us all "a Table" in LA. http://homepage.mac.com/evleth/PhotoAlbum10.html "Cecil, Lallia, Earl, and Donna at dinner in LA" Lallia is an American born woman of Algerian-French heritage. Ironically, of the three "a table" Lallia does not speak French (although has French nationality). Born in Brooklyn, she has a slight NY accent. We are the core group, along with Lars from Holland, supporting Barry, a American naturalized African who is in prison here in France. Barry at one time spoke no French, but prison life has furnished him with an education. One learns languages in a variety of ways, or sometimes not at all. There is no single path. Earl |
#58
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
On 12/12/03 1:04, in article , "Alan
Harrison" wrote: I think the students reached a consensus that hijab isn't quite the same as the other religiously significant items of dress, Wearing a crucifix or kippa is a sign of religious devotion. The former is ceratinly not a requirement of Christianity nor is wearing or not wearing one seen as an issue of morality. While not all Muslim women wear hijab, those who do perceive it as a requirement of modesty and therefore as an issue of sexual morality. The "beurettes" who wish to wear a headscarf would probably regard a demand to remove it not as the equivalent of a Catholic girl taking off a crucifix but of taking off her blouse. It seems to me that actual number of incidents of conflict over wearing the scarves is small, therefore the whole debate has ane element of "much ado about nothing much at all". As I said, the main issue and worry in France should be over the larger issue of discrimination against Arabs generally, the "Arabophobie". The Stasi report is attempting to play off that aspect and recommend changes which would reduce the phobic content. Next, the other side of the Fence, those in the Islamic community against scarves, is not getting sufficient play in the English language press. Part of this movement may be by those Algerians of Berber descent against Arabization (including making Arab the official language in Algeria). So the culture wars in the Muslim community are more complicated that the Anglos realize. Lastly, some of the wearing of scarves are part of the "teenage" rebellian against adult authority, it is seen in some of the confrontations. People do things for at least two reasons 1) the one they verbalize 2) the real one. The real one is involved in the culture war. Religion, in some cases, is secondary. Earl |
#59
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
Mxsmanic wrote in message . ..
Charles Hawtrey writes: The obsession of the French with preserving their language and culture against outside influence is something many of us find difficult to comprehend, but in the end it's their own business. Unfortunately, they indulge their obsession in the wrong way, by treating the symptoms, rather than the cause. For example, the decline of French is an effect, not a cause. It is the consequence of the declining influence of France in the world. The incursion of English words into French is a consequence of the overwhelming influence of the United States in the world. The only way to change the balance is to change the influence wielded by these societies, but the French attempt to fix the problem by simply outlawing English words and coming up with French translations for them. That never works, alas! Well, it seems to have worked almost perfectly for icelandic. It is still almost completely free of anglisisms, despite their country being exposed to even more anglosaxon cultural influence than France. Bjorn |
#60
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France, the culture wars over head scarves
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