Paris is Burning

Go Fig writes:

How many black trash men or plumbers or railroad workers were accepted
or recruited ?

Employers do not actively recruit people of any particular race, as a
general rule ... precisely because race isn't that important. However,
blacks of recent immigrant ancestry are very prominent in some lines of
work, such as security guards, fast-food workers, public sanitation
workers, and a number of other types of work. The common thread seems
to be that these are jobs requiring few special qualifications, and thus
they probably appeal to recent immigrants, who often have no special
skills.

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David Horne writes:

Indeed- that doesn't mean there aren't problems with race.

Actually it does. The whole attraction of France was that the country
cared nothing about race. Black artists in France could eat, perform,
live, and love under the same circumstances as the white locals. This
was back decades ago, which active racial discrimination was still
widespread in many parts of the United States. The blacks in France
enjoyed living in a country where nobody worried about race.

France isn't the only relatively color-blind country. Many black GIs
stationed in Germany have found that to be a better place to live than
the U.S. cities from which they came, again because the Germans are not
obsessed by race.

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Mxsmanic wrote:

David Horne writes:

Indeed- that doesn't mean there aren't problems with race.

Actually it does. The whole attraction of France was that the country
cared nothing about race. Black artists in France could eat, perform,
live, and love under the same circumstances as the white locals. This
was back decades ago, which active racial discrimination was still
widespread in many parts of the United States. The blacks in France
enjoyed living in a country where nobody worried about race.

This is not true. You ought to read a little about attitudes at the time
towards race. There's actually a rather dark side to compositions like
Debussy's "Golliwog's Cakewalk" or "Le petit negre" which a lot of
people aren't aware of. Debussy was, by today's standards, clearly
racist- and his jokes, comments and attitudes were not uncommon then.
Doesn't mean he was a fabulous composer- but the unfortunate side to his
character is clear- and he was not unusual in that regard.

Just because France was more enlightened than other countries doesn't
mean that they were completely enlightened.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Alan Pollock writes:

Then check this one out - relatively recent and well-written:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_...arbarians.html

It is much better balanced, although it describes problems that exist
mainly in small and troublesome areas, and do not reflect the general
state of French society.

Until quite recently there was a great deal of leniency towards
offenders, and minors in particular could do just about anything without
ever being prosecuted at all. There has been a recent crackdown,
though, and things are changing. For example, the large groups of women
who used to beg around the Latin Quarter ("Do you speak English?") have
now been eliminated, mostly by deportation (many were illegal aliens
from Romania), and some by jail (it's illegal to make minors beg in
France, and several large begging rings were broken).

All major metropolitan areas have their danger zones. It's best to just
avoid those zones. It's unfortunate that all the angry young males
can't simply be grouped together and allowed to kill each other, as it
would have a great cleansing effect on society.

Note, by the way, that the article doesn't talk about race, since that
is not the problem.

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David Horne writes:

This is not true. You ought to read a little about attitudes at the time
towards race.

I have. Attitudes in Paris, at least, back then were healthier than
they are in some parts of the U.S. today.

There's actually a rather dark side to compositions like
Debussy's "Golliwog's Cakewalk" or "Le petit negre" which a lot of
people aren't aware of.

Because they haven't historically been obsessed enough with race to see
racism where it doesn't exist. Today, people who think of little else
see "racism" under every rock. Rather like people who think that odes
to Satan are concealed in every rock album when played backwards. If
you look hard enough for something, you'll find it, even when it doesn't
exist.

Debussy was, by today's standards, clearly racist ...

By today's standards, 95% of human behavior is "racist."

Doesn't mean he was a fabulous composer- but the unfortunate side to his
character is clear- and he was not unusual in that regard.

Nobody was offended by it then. Nobody was limping under the weight of
a gigantic chip on his shoulder in those days.

Just because France was more enlightened than other countries doesn't
mean that they were completely enlightened.

Just because you can find what looks like possible evidence of some
acknowledgement of the existence of race by squinting very hard at the
world around you doesn't mean that racism is a problem, or even a
reality.

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Carleen writes:

As one of those Americans who viewed France as a color-blind
Utopia, it was really jarring for me when I learned about
this perceived "underclass".

I don't see any mention of race in the article, and France is fairly
color-blind, compared to places like the U.S.

Most prejudice and conflict is directed towards unassimilated immigrants
and their unassimilated descendants ... without regard to race. Arabs
belong to the same race as Europeans.

... be they African-Americans in the US or Arabs in
Europe, you're going to foment the same social ills.

Like most Americans, you see race problems where none exist. Some of
the scum in France are ordinary white trash.

The article, incidentally, is a masterpiece of yellow journalism.

Ok, the reference to France being "color-blind" was specifically how
African-Americans have traditionally viewed the country, but I didn't say
the French were racist either. I know the issue in France isn't race - it's
one of nationalism. Those that aren't "Franco-Francais" are marginalized.
But that doesn't negate anything in my original post. Regardless of the
*reasons* that you choose to disenfranchise, segregate, and discriminate,
you're going to have the same consequences.

Carleen

"Alan Pollock" wrote in message
...

In rec.travel.europe Mxsmanic wrote:
Carleen writes:

And I don't care how old the article is, I know from frequent visits
to
France, Paris especially, that *everything* mentioned is still very
relevant.

What the article describes is sensationalistic no matter what timeframe
is referenced.


Then check this one out - relatively recent and well-written:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_...arbarians.html

Nex

From the article:

"Whether France was wise to have permitted the mass immigration of people
culturally very different from its own population to solve a temporary labor
shortage and to assuage its own abstract liberal conscience is disputable:
there are now an estimated 8 or 9 million people of North and West African
origin in France, twice the number in 1975-and at least 5 million of them
are Muslims. Demographic projections (though projections are not
predictions) suggest that their descendants will number 35 million before
this century is out, more than a third of the likely total population of
France.

"Indisputably, however, France has handled the resultant situation in the
worst possible way. Unless it assimilates these millions successfully, its
future will be grim. But it has separated and isolated immigrants and their
descendants geographically into dehumanizing ghettos; it has pursued
economic policies to promote unemployment and create dependence among them,
with all the inevitable psychological consequences; it has flattered the
repellent and worthless culture that they have developed; and it has
withdrawn the protection of the law from them, allowing them to create their
own lawless order."

Liberals take heed. Your gated communities

http://image.pathfinder.com/time/dai...ierra/gate.jpg

won't keep the mudsharks at bay forever....

Mxsmanic wrote:

David Horne writes:

This is not true. You ought to read a little about attitudes at the time
towards race.

I have. Attitudes in Paris, at least, back then were healthier than
they are in some parts of the U.S. today.

Which still doesn't mean they were healthy- and of course Paris isn't
all of France.

There's actually a rather dark side to compositions like
Debussy's "Golliwog's Cakewalk" or "Le petit negre" which a lot of
people aren't aware of.

Because they haven't historically been obsessed enough with race to see
racism where it doesn't exist. Today, people who think of little else
see "racism" under every rock. Rather like people who think that odes
to Satan are concealed in every rock album when played backwards. If
you look hard enough for something, you'll find it, even when it doesn't
exist.

Debussy was, by today's standards, clearly racist ...

By today's standards, 95% of human behavior is "racist."

Change the goal-posts if you like- it will make no difference. I'm not
talking about some vague anti-black thing here- I'm talking about a
pervasive notion, which is well documented that black people were
considered genetically inferior- stupid- whatever you want to call it.
This was even a view held by many anti-slavery campaigners. Yes, you're
darn right that that would be considered racist today- and it sure as
hell was racists back then too.

Doesn't mean he was a fabulous composer- but the unfortunate side to his
character is clear- and he was not unusual in that regard.

Nobody was offended by it then. Nobody was limping under the weight of
a gigantic chip on his shoulder in those days.

Oh, my, those uppity black folk.

Just because France was more enlightened than other countries doesn't
mean that they were completely enlightened.

Just because you can find what looks like possible evidence of some
acknowledgement of the existence of race by squinting very hard at the
world around you doesn't mean that racism is a problem, or even a
reality.

Yeah, and http://www.frontnational.com/ probably agrees with you.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Carleen writes:

I know the issue in France isn't race - it's one of nationalism.

It's one of culture ... just as it is in every country where large
numbers of immigrants arrive and do not assimilate.

Those that aren't "Franco-Francais" are marginalized.

They have the option of becoming franco-français, but many prefer to
live on the fringes instead. And some are killed by their peers if they
try to assimilate (especially young women, in the case of Arab Muslim
immigrants).

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On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:25:09 -0400, "Carleen"
wrote:

snip:
Ok, the reference to France being "color-blind" was specifically how
African-Americans have traditionally viewed the country,

snip:

You are being intellectually disingenuous, and you know it.
While France has some social ills (mostly with Arabs), she (France)
is not as obsessed with race as the US....

Actually, you can conduct this little experience:
go to soc.culture.french and tell me if you find any vile racist
posts. Now, go to soc.culture.african.american and judge
for yourself. See where I am going with this?

By the way, why do you post under a woman's name?

Kafou "Just curious." Lobo