How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal

(Emma Knaps) wrote in message . com...
(cynara) wrote:

Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq
does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade.

Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info?
Do tell, I'm genuinely curious.

Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None
of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't
prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they
don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has
been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too.

o.com (Emma Knaps) wrote in message . com...
(cynara) wrote:

Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq
does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade.

Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info?
Do tell, I'm genuinely curious.

Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None
of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't
prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they
don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has
been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too.

Well, dear, that's properly vague, thank you. I thought you could
state some facts and sources to back up your above statement since you
seemed so adamant that this is so. I apologize. Apparently I confused
your sincere _wish_ above for an obvious statement of irrefutable
fact.
I do appreciate the comment from the other poster who replied. Now
that was some food for thought.

Was I the only one who watched the reports during the war about high
dangerous chemical readings near a bridge that was coming from the
water in the river? I recall they said the evidence was strong that a
lot of chemicals had been poured into the river at that point, and
that over time any traces would dissipate. That was one instance.

Allow me to clarify before going on that this isn't fact, merely my
thoughts, that in the months leading up to the war, So-Damn-Insane and
his cronies, knowing that the WMD's was the main thrust behind a
future war that they had no chance of winning, had more than ample
time to send most evidence of their involvement with the chemical
weapons abroad to other countries and buried or destroyed the rest as
the war was coming to a close so that when it was all over and the
dust settled, there would always be the question of whether or not
they still had their WMD program going or not. IF this was their long
term plan, to divide the world's opinions (which they knew was divided
prior to the war starting) as to whether they STILL had those
capabilities or not and permanently confuse the innocents who believe
the best of even people like him and his cronies, regardless of what
FACTS there are that they DID use such weapons on their own people
(amongst other horrors), then it looks like they are successful at
this point in time. However, I feel that it will take time, years
even, to gather ALL the facts about the WMD's and until these FACTS
come to light, or as much as the governments will ever let us know, I
plan to keep an open mind.
Sadly we live in a micro-wave society where people want certifiable
results in hand by yesterday and that's too damn bad. Some things, in
order to be done right, to be evaluated right, takes t-i-m-e,
especially in this situation. I want the facts evaluated properly and
from all angles, however long it takes. Inconvenient for making snap
decisions about whether it was right or wrong and all that, but that's
life, isn't it?
For the record, I wanted to wait before going in too. I had hoped we
could work through it, but it didn't go the way I wanted and that's
too bad. No matter what we hear in the media and think we know, damn
few of us had the insight that the governments involved had when they
made their decisions. My reversal of feelings about the war began
however when the statue of So-Damn-Insane fell and the Iraqi's
themselves who, unlike a lot of us with opinions did, lived through
that horror and were touched by it every day, and I saw that THESE
people were happy, despite the fodder they'd been fed and uncertainty
of the future; they rejoiced in the winds of change! When they
unfurled the old Iraqi flag that represented the Iraq of educated,
bright people not being drug under by the likes of that dictator and
his cronies, and how they carried those flags with such pride and joy
brought tears to my eyes because their joy touched me. After all
they've been through. It's easy for those who stand outside untouched
by the true fears and horrors of living like the Iraqi's did, those
who are happy in their lives and jobs and have food on the table and
know their husbands and sons will be home from work and school and
that their daughters have their dignity and their children have a good
chance at a fair and good future, to stand in their soft world and
smugly make judgement calls and feel righteous about it. Sure! It's
easy to sit back and look from outside the reality and think you know
and understand it all, but I bet it's a whole other thing to live
under what those people lived under for even a week. So when the
Iraqi's in majority stand up with pride and carry their flags and
rejoice in their chance at a new beginning, well, that says far more
to me than all the vague airy-fairy wishes that equates their horrible
reality with a figment of imagination on par with fairies and
wi_Z_ards.
The way the war went down will probably be a question to be discussed
for many years (and many threads)into the future regardless of what
facts come to light, but the outcome, well, so far, I think the
Iraqi's are ahead and that's what counts.
It's a hot issue with many, but thanks for allowing me the soapbox
stand and now I hand it over to the next...
CY

The electricity doesn't exist either

Emma Knaps wrote:
(cynara) wrote:


Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq
does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade.

Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info?
Do tell, I'm genuinely curious.


Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None
of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't
prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they
don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has
been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too.

john wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jan 2004 17:41:28 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote:

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...

SNIP


Oh, and posting crap from "GreenLeft.org", an *EXTREME* left wing
Aussie group that openly advocates socialism simply proves how far out
in space you are.

Hang on a minute sport.

Socialism ?

Since when is this name tag so bad?

Since it's been proven to be destructive. People suffer in the long
run.

Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical
record.

Capitalism. More people have benefited in more ways in the long run
from capitalism.

What are you talking about?

Do you own a history book? A few hundred years ago the entire world
was in poverty. Half the world is now wealthy beyond the wildest
dreams of people then. Western Europe, North America, Japan,
Australia, New Zealand: all products of Capitalism. SE Asia has become
more capitalistic and most nations are no longer third world. Some are
on the verge of being first world.

China is a perfect example. Under Communism (which included a
Socialist economy) it foundered. It has began allowing Capitalism in
some forms in the last decade or so and it's economy is growing
rapidly. Millions are leaving poverty behind.

There are more governments in Latin America and in the Far East that
are RUINED because they listened to the capitalistic pitch from the US
government and and Wall Street. These countries were looted by US
Banks and US corporations.


The core belief in Socialism is "Redistribution of Wealth". The core
belief in Capitalism is "Creation of Wealth".

Socialism is a zero sum game. To help one person you must hurt another
person. Capitalism helps everyone. Some benefit more than others. But
even the worst off are better under Capitalism than Socialism.

Well, there are more nations who have a socialistic form of government
than there are nations with a capitalistic form of government.

And the capitalistic countries are far wealthier and their citizens
are far better off.

"Tosser" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


More people have benefited in more ways in the long run
from capitalism.


FMD

Tell that to Adidas sweat shop workers, you naive, privileged (and probably
overfed) parrot.

You mean the Adidas sweat shop workers who are making 10 times what
they were making before Adidas came to town?

"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...

SNIP

Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its
historical
record.

Capitalism. More people have benefited in more ways in the long run
from capitalism.

You do mean Alan Bond, the Late Skace, the Late Laurie Connell, current
money handlers of NAB, AMP., ANSET and the seven year list of hearings to be
heard by our Courts of other financial misadventures ? And that leaves
Japan, USA, UK etc yet unmentioned, in the list of those who we look up to
as proof that capitalism is the way to go? Pull the other leg ;-)

I mean Western Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, etc. who have
all embraced Capitalism and whose people are all better off than those
living in Socialist countries.

The core belief in Socialism is "Redistribution of Wealth". The core
belief in Capitalism is "Creation of Wealth".

Where does land speculation, or for that matter any monetary speculation fit
in on this deal of wealth creation? Speculation in Real estate for example,
does not create anything other than a bill to be paid by later generations
surely?

What does that have to do with Capitalism? Do you know what the word
means?

Socialism is a zero sum game. To help one person you must hurt another
person. Capitalism helps everyone. Some benefit more than others. But
even the worst off are better under Capitalism than Socialism.

If Socialism is a zero game, then based on what was discussed earlier in
this post, Capitalism must be a minus (negative) game. Oh, why we are about
it, how old is your system?

Old enough to have been proven successful.

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"DN" wrote in message
news:RXLNb.14313$Wa.6875@news-

SNIP

What does that have to do with Capitalism? Do you know what the word
means?

Ahhhhhhhhhh; Before answering that, I thought it might be worth looking at
Fascist, as spelled out in my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, which says
in part ".... representing a nationalist reaction against socialism
...........etc " Now I could read much into that, but refrain this time
round. Now to Capitalism. Loosely described, I thought, by good old Chambers
as " the economic system which generates and GIVES power to capitalists".
All to simple and unfair a description in the pure sense of the word, to
some who practice it. What we argue about and what members on this ng are
interested in, is the defence of this *system*. I assert, with a great deal
of evidence, that Capitalism in the real and practical World, is a system
subject to abuse by the lever pullers and who suck in the political machine,
legal system and the defence system to protect them in their national and
international dealings. It is far to simple to use a single brush on your
canvas "Tchiowa" , to paint any convincing image of what you believe in.

SNIP

If Socialism is a zero game, then based on what was discussed earlier in
this post, Capitalism must be a minus (negative) game. Oh, why we are
about
it, how old is your system?

Old enough to have been proven successful.

I'm not so sure about it being old enough to have been proved successful. I
don't think you know the answer to the question above. So, I'll prompt you.

Shall we start in the year 1305 in France? Or we could move to Boston in
the year 1644 ? What about a century later with Dr Adam Smith at the
University of Glasgow in the 1760's? Later perhaps; 1883 the year Karl Marx
passed away and John Maynard Keynes was born? From those name and place
tags, I'm sure you could elicit something about this engine room called
Capitalism, the oil called Economics and the continual revolutions
throughout history, which, dare I say it, have been defended by army and
navy and later air forces. I've no doubt, more blood will be spilt in the
defence of 'isms.

So, when you put your hand up, or cast a vote, think a little bit about
what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple
matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some.
Including us.

DN

Hi "cynara". Interesting post and a good review of the news.

One thing bothers a simple old sod like me, is how the WMD's disappeared
over the border to a neighbour and sent forward some place else, (if the
truth is known) with out the space spy technology not 'seeing' anything..
I've read with great interest and amazement years ago, how these camera's
from space can read a page of a newspaper or a road sign at least, civil
works of construction and yet, on several passes each day, nothing was
observed. One would easily believe, that surveillance was on high priority,
many months before the threats were made to Sadam Hussein, that an invasion
would take place.

Either the claims made for the space spy technology has been a fizz and
highly exaggerated, or some other game is going on we don't know about. What
do you think?

DN



"cynara" wrote in message
om...
(Emma Knaps) wrote in message
. com...
(cynara) wrote:

Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq
does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade.

Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info?
Do tell, I'm genuinely curious.

Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None
of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't
prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they
don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has
been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too.

o.com (Emma Knaps) wrote in message
. com...
(cynara) wrote:

Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq
does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade.

Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info?
Do tell, I'm genuinely curious.

Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None
of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't
prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they
don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has
been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too.

Well, dear, that's properly vague, thank you. I thought you could
state some facts and sources to back up your above statement since you
seemed so adamant that this is so. I apologize. Apparently I confused
your sincere _wish_ above for an obvious statement of irrefutable
fact.
I do appreciate the comment from the other poster who replied. Now
that was some food for thought.

Was I the only one who watched the reports during the war about high
dangerous chemical readings near a bridge that was coming from the
water in the river? I recall they said the evidence was strong that a
lot of chemicals had been poured into the river at that point, and
that over time any traces would dissipate. That was one instance.

Allow me to clarify before going on that this isn't fact, merely my
thoughts, that in the months leading up to the war, So-Damn-Insane and
his cronies, knowing that the WMD's was the main thrust behind a
future war that they had no chance of winning, had more than ample
time to send most evidence of their involvement with the chemical
weapons abroad to other countries and buried or destroyed the rest as
the war was coming to a close so that when it was all over and the
dust settled, there would always be the question of whether or not
they still had their WMD program going or not. IF this was their long
term plan, to divide the world's opinions (which they knew was divided
prior to the war starting) as to whether they STILL had those
capabilities or not and permanently confuse the innocents who believe
the best of even people like him and his cronies, regardless of what
FACTS there are that they DID use such weapons on their own people
(amongst other horrors), then it looks like they are successful at
this point in time. However, I feel that it will take time, years
even, to gather ALL the facts about the WMD's and until these FACTS
come to light, or as much as the governments will ever let us know, I
plan to keep an open mind.
Sadly we live in a micro-wave society where people want certifiable
results in hand by yesterday and that's too damn bad. Some things, in
order to be done right, to be evaluated right, takes t-i-m-e,
especially in this situation. I want the facts evaluated properly and
from all angles, however long it takes. Inconvenient for making snap
decisions about whether it was right or wrong and all that, but that's
life, isn't it?
For the record, I wanted to wait before going in too. I had hoped we
could work through it, but it didn't go the way I wanted and that's
too bad. No matter what we hear in the media and think we know, damn
few of us had the insight that the governments involved had when they
made their decisions. My reversal of feelings about the war began
however when the statue of So-Damn-Insane fell and the Iraqi's
themselves who, unlike a lot of us with opinions did, lived through
that horror and were touched by it every day, and I saw that THESE
people were happy, despite the fodder they'd been fed and uncertainty
of the future; they rejoiced in the winds of change! When they
unfurled the old Iraqi flag that represented the Iraq of educated,
bright people not being drug under by the likes of that dictator and
his cronies, and how they carried those flags with such pride and joy
brought tears to my eyes because their joy touched me. After all
they've been through. It's easy for those who stand outside untouched
by the true fears and horrors of living like the Iraqi's did, those
who are happy in their lives and jobs and have food on the table and
know their husbands and sons will be home from work and school and
that their daughters have their dignity and their children have a good
chance at a fair and good future, to stand in their soft world and
smugly make judgement calls and feel righteous about it. Sure! It's
easy to sit back and look from outside the reality and think you know
and understand it all, but I bet it's a whole other thing to live
under what those people lived under for even a week. So when the
Iraqi's in majority stand up with pride and carry their flags and
rejoice in their chance at a new beginning, well, that says far more
to me than all the vague airy-fairy wishes that equates their horrible
reality with a figment of imagination on par with fairies and
wi_Z_ards.
The way the war went down will probably be a question to be discussed
for many years (and many threads)into the future regardless of what
facts come to light, but the outcome, well, so far, I think the
Iraqi's are ahead and that's what counts.
It's a hot issue with many, but thanks for allowing me the soapbox
stand and now I hand it over to the next...
CY

"DN" wrote in message
...


One thing bothers a simple old sod like me, is how the WMD's disappeared
over the border to a neighbour and sent forward some place else, (if the
truth is known) with out the space spy technology not 'seeing' anything..


What? You think the bloody things have Superman's xray vision and can see
through truck tarps or into the guts of "petrol tankers" and railway trucks?

You think the Iraqis were too dumb to play deception?

Go and sit in the corner.

GRIN

"Tosser" wrote in message
...


SNIP


You think the Iraqis were too dumb to play deception?

Go and sit in the corner.

GRIN

Bread and water for a week do? Must be getting older than I think and
subject to believing anything ;-)

DN

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...
"Tosser" wrote in message
...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
om...


More people have benefited in more ways in the long run
from capitalism.


FMD

Tell that to Adidas sweat shop workers, you naive, privileged (and probably
overfed) parrot.

You mean the Adidas sweat shop workers who are making 10 times what
they were making before Adidas came to town?


Listen, you naive prat: Capitalism is a game, played by capitalists.

You are not one. Neither am I.

If we were, we would by making money, not swapping bull**** from behind
keyboards.

I always find it inexplicable that pawns get so fervent defending the system
that exploits them.

Time for your reality pills, Einsten!